Youthful Masters.

[DWx]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

[bushido_man96]

I agree, and this is another concern that those who participate in styles like Wrestling and Boxing don't have to worry about.

[ps1]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I think there's no doubt that this is true.

[sensei8]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I don't need to be anything except a student of the MA. Those type of things are there, and were there before I came onto the MA picture. I am what I am, but it's not because of something that I did beyond my training.

No one falls into the hierarchy, they're selected via an established voting proxy. Not everyone is of the hierarchy!! We use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan circles to only note whom lies within the Administrative Chain of Command, and not within the ranks, as you're viewing it. It's an unfamiliar term for me to see rank as you're explaining it.

Before I was elected into the old Board of Regents, I was NOT part of the hierarchy, nor was I privy to anything Administrative and the like. When I speak here at KF and I use the word "hierarchy", I've always been referring to those members, those chosen few, that are part of the Administration and the like.

Ok...I've babbled enough...sorry!

[quinteros1963]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I don't need to be anything except a student of the MA. Those type of things are there, and were there before I came onto the MA picture. I am what I am, but it's not because of something that I did beyond my training.

No one falls into the hierarchy, they're selected via an established voting proxy. Not everyone is of the hierarchy!! We use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan circles to only note whom lies within the Administrative Chain of Command, and not within the ranks, as you're viewing it. It's an unfamiliar term for me to see rank as you're explaining it.

Before I was elected into the old Board of Regents, I was NOT part of the hierarchy, nor was I privy to anything Administrative and the like. When I speak here at KF and I use the word "hierarchy", I've always been referring to those members, those chosen few, that are part of the Administration and the like.

Ok...I've babbled enough...sorry!

I see it as a system of Control and a Business. People want to stand out as accomplished. Most (not all, but very few) black belts are full of themselves and must be distinguished from the lower ranked dans. In my circle here in Texas the master ranked instructors can't agree on anything because of ego. Thy show little or no respect to each other, question how rank was attained and won't recognized rank outside their org. On the business side it costs nearly 500$ for 5th Dan 1000 for 7th Dan and so on!

I miss boxing where all we did is train and spar. Your skill spoke for you.

[DWx]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I don't need to be anything except a student of the MA. Those type of things are there, and were there before I came onto the MA picture. I am what I am, but it's not because of something that I did beyond my training.

No one falls into the hierarchy, they're selected via an established voting proxy. Not everyone is of the hierarchy!! We use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan circles to only note whom lies within the Administrative Chain of Command, and not within the ranks, as you're viewing it. It's an unfamiliar term for me to see rank as you're explaining it.

Before I was elected into the old Board of Regents, I was NOT part of the hierarchy, nor was I privy to anything Administrative and the like. When I speak here at KF and I use the word "hierarchy", I've always been referring to those members, those chosen few, that are part of the Administration and the like.

Ok...I've babbled enough...sorry!

It's seems as though you use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan to refer to something specific?

In the strictest sense of the word, everyone who wears belts is part of a hierarchy whether they want to be or not. Taking this definition:

(n) a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority

Belt ranking seems to fit into this pretty well. Once getting the next belt stops opening up a new part of the curriculum for you, why do you ever need to be promoted again?

[Rateh]

If black belt rank doesn't matter at all, so everyone just stops advancing once they become a first degree, then the entire style will cease to exist. Who will promote students to different levels of color belt? Who will promote black belts? There MUST be people in higher dan ranks in order for a style to continue. That is just a fact, that cannot be pretended away. The only other way would be for the style to get rid of ALL belt levels, and instead follow the way of boxing or wrestling.

[CredoTe]

Keep in mind that before Eastern MA were introduced into grade schools, there really were no belt ranks like we see today. Karate, for instance, just trained hard for purposes of self-defense / civilian combat. Before its introduction into Japanese and Okinawan schools, people trained quietly in small groups or pairs, not too unlike Jedi and Padawans - a "master" or "instructor" and an apprentice or number of apprentices. They trained mostly outside in secluded areas away from unsuspecting viewers.

So, the idea that MA should train more like wrestling or boxing - they used to be that way in a certain sense, but I would say not quite so organized as wrestling or boxing (because karateka had to keep they're training hidden).

Just a thought...

[sensei8]

After a certain point I think rank just becomes another tool for maintaining hierarchy.

How so??

Well why do you need to be a nidan? Or a sandan? Or a kudan? Why not just a Blackbelt? It is a tool to distinguish you from him or from her. That you are Bill's senior but Bob's junior. Early on rank is an identifier so your instructor and others can gauge your progress on a curriculum but when you are training for training's sake why do you need to be promoted further. IMHO it's to maintain that hierarchy so that both the rank holder and their peers know where within that hierarchy they fall.

I don't need to be anything except a student of the MA. Those type of things are there, and were there before I came onto the MA picture. I am what I am, but it's not because of something that I did beyond my training.

No one falls into the hierarchy, they're selected via an established voting proxy. Not everyone is of the hierarchy!! We use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan circles to only note whom lies within the Administrative Chain of Command, and not within the ranks, as you're viewing it. It's an unfamiliar term for me to see rank as you're explaining it.

Before I was elected into the old Board of Regents, I was NOT part of the hierarchy, nor was I privy to anything Administrative and the like. When I speak here at KF and I use the word "hierarchy", I've always been referring to those members, those chosen few, that are part of the Administration and the like.

Ok...I've babbled enough...sorry!

It's seems as though you use the word "hierarchy" within Shindokan to refer to something specific?

In the strictest sense of the word, everyone who wears belts is part of a hierarchy whether they want to be or not. Taking this definition:

(n) a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority

Belt ranking seems to fit into this pretty well. Once getting the next belt stops opening up a new part of the curriculum for you, why do you ever need to be promoted again?

To the bold type above...

I refer to something specific, because it is specific within the Hombu! Not my rule, but the established rule as set by our Soke!! Our hierarchy is the recognized authority within our Hombu and the SKKA. Our ranks are NOT part of OUR hierarchy, and not all, but very few, are nominated/elected to be appointed to that status from our specific ranks. It's OUR way!! Not the way of others!!

[DWx]

If black belt rank doesn't matter at all, so everyone just stops advancing once they become a first degree, then the entire style will cease to exist. Who will promote students to different levels of color belt? Who will promote black belts? There MUST be people in higher dan ranks in order for a style to continue. That is just a fact, that cannot be pretended away. The only other way would be for the style to get rid of ALL belt levels, and instead follow the way of boxing or wrestling.

Does this not illustrate my point in a way? By-laws and rules regarding promotion and other such things mean we have to maintain a hierarchical structure. It's a product of itself. It's not to say a hierarchy is bad, humans like order and structure.

Really though, why must we have high dan grades? What is wrong someone being just a blackbelt, teaching a student for a number of years, then saying to said student "you've passed the criteria, you are now a blackbelt too".