Youthful Masters.

[bushido_man96]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

I think what it has lead to is the fact that the full resistance that is achievable through grappling practice is of increased value in training, providing skill improvement under pressure. I don't think it leads to the view that it always wins. But, there is something to be said about the effectiveness of the training method.

Again, what's wrong with holding the last Dan rank as it was awarded to this said person by their Sensei? Nothing! But, they want the rank over knowledge; then so be it!!

What's wrong with continuing to seek rank after a sensei has passed, though? I think we can all agree that the farther we get into our Martial careers, the more important self-evaluation becomes. I think most of us also agree that the higher dan ranks have more to do with things done to perpetuate the Martial Arts (not just the one or two we study) and teaching, and are not soley based on physical testing requirements. So, why is it so wrong that if someone after some careful self-evaluation, determines that they have perhaps surpassed their previous rank, and decide to bump themselves up?

Now, I'm not saying that everyone takes these steps to do this with themselves. Some feel a need to do so in order to appear like the high ranking head of a new organization, or because they part ways with a different organization and try to prove a point.

My point is, there are varying reasons and approaches to take when it comes to high ranks, and how to achieve them. And they all appear selfish because no one is promoting them, and they are promoting themselves, or seeking a group of peers that acknowledge their self-promotion in an attempt to justify it to the masses that, by and large, won't be accepting of it anyway.

It will be an endless debate.

[sensei8]

Again, what's wrong with holding the last Dan rank as it was awarded to this said person by their Sensei? Nothing! But, they want the rank over knowledge; then so be it!!

What's wrong with continuing to seek rank after a sensei has passed, though?

I was asking those who had self-promoted themselves to Judan AFTER the founder of their style passed away. One minute they're a 7th Dan, as it was awarded to him/her by the founder, now, they're a 10th Dan. "People will take me more serious if I'm a 10th Dan!" Hogwash! By people, I'm assuming that they meant the layperson, not a seasoned MAist.

Nothing's wrong with seeking after rank UNTIL rank becomes more important than knowledge/experience.

So, why is it so wrong that if someone after some careful self-evaluation, determines that they have perhaps surpassed their previous rank, and decide to bump themselves up?

Everything! Imho, the entire rank system has a tester, therefore an awarder, and in that, the entire rank system has a testing candidate, therefore, a receiver of said award. Self-promotion, imho, that's what we're talking about, is the bane of the rank systems existence.

Imagine, for example, the green belt promoting himself/herself to brown belt on their own! If the higher belts can, then why not everyone, no matter the rank. The rank system would be of absolute no-value; it barely is now for many reasons.

Thank God, there's always a floor!!

[njd]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them.

With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion

[maisweh]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them.

With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion

so karate guys cant really hit full force because they might injure? yet kickboxing, MT, sanshou and boxing do practice full force... how about the more likely answer is that most people here think they train in an effective art or manner and really don't.

but nope, no one will admit it.

[njd]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them.

With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion

so karate guys cant really hit full force because they might injure? yet kickboxing, MT, sanshou and boxing do practice full force... how about the more likely answer is that most people here think they train in an effective art or manner and really don't.

but nope, no one will admit it.

Yes that is probably the truth of it . Most people just want a hobby but don't really want to be smashed in the face etc and that is why a lot of what is learnt is untested and probably wouldn't work in a real situation.

[bushido_man96]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them.

With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion

so karate guys cant really hit full force because they might injure? yet kickboxing, MT, sanshou and boxing do practice full force... how about the more likely answer is that most people here think they train in an effective art or manner and really don't.

but nope, no one will admit it.

You are making a valid point. But, its not necessarily that their training isn't effective; it has more to do with what the goals of the training is. WTF TKD fighters aren't likely going to be top flight strikers with their hands, but their kicking will be good. Muay Thai fighters and Kyokushin fighters are going to be a bit more rounded with both hands and feet, and knees, etc. It really depends on the goal of the training. Wrestlers have some great positional control moves, but they don't do well from their backs, where BJJers will excel.

There are holes in a lot of what we do. Seeking ways to fix them is the key.

[bushido_man96]

So, why is it so wrong that if someone after some careful self-evaluation, determines that they have perhaps surpassed their previous rank, and decide to bump themselves up?

Everything! Imho, the entire rank system has a tester, therefore an awarder, and in that, the entire rank system has a testing candidate, therefore, a receiver of said award. Self-promotion, imho, that's what we're talking about, is the bane of the rank systems existence.

Imagine, for example, the green belt promoting himself/herself to brown belt on their own! If the higher belts can, then why not everyone, no matter the rank. The rank system would be of absolute no-value; it barely is now for many reasons.

Thank God, there's always a floor!!

I believe the testing system is a good system, but it really only works well for the colored belt ranks and the lower dan ranks. Once one gets to a certain level, the peers that are available to make the judgements that we all have become inundated to accept as necessary for promotion become fewer and farer between.

Imagine, for example, the green belt promoting himself/herself to brown belt on their own! If the higher belts can, then why not everyone, no matter the rank. The rank system would be of absolute no-value; it barely is now for many reasons.

I bring these statements back up to focus on them. Green belts self-promoting, we don't really have to worry about. We have a system in place that deals with that. Why not everyone? Because of discernment. If most people can be honest with themselves, and use some discernment to really evaluate where they are physically and mentally in their training, then there can be some sound decisions made in regards to rank involving self-evaluation and self-promotion.

I think a big issue here is that many traditionalists that have been attached to the way the system of rank has been run for so long remain rigid in regards to how the system works, and don't want to see it change. That's one reason why I have always held respect for the way systems like Muay Thai, Boxing, and Wrestling work. For these styles, the proof truly is on the floor, on the mat, in the ring, etc. Where you stand on the podium at the end of the day shows how good you were that day, compared to who else showed up. This may sound like I am talking about winning only, but that's not the case. There is more to it than that.

Another factor has to do with how we view humilitiy as opposed to self-aggrandizement, which is really how we view self-promotion. When Muhammed Ali said, "I'm the Greatest!" I don't recall him checking with anyone else first. But, they guy is loved...

[sensei8]

The rank system is good, for the most part, but it's the human factor in the rank system that's fallible, for the better part.

Imho.

Hopefully, I'm not viewed as someone who is ridged. I've beliefs of my own, and I was raised by Soke and Dai-Soke, so the mix is there. I'm strict, that I don't apologize because I value rank that's untainted.

If you've self-promoted yourself in rank for whatever reason(s), then I don't and won't respect you and your newly found rank. I would've threw up if my Dai-Soke had self-promoted himself to Judan, then I would've told him to get out of my life forever.

Hhhhmmmmmm...I suppose that the By-Laws make it OK. Now I'm feeling really sick right in the pit of my stomach.

Splinters beget new governing bodies, and to promote yourself via the new board that you've just started, to me, is self-promoting. It disgusts me to no end. Again, I suppose, my Soke promoted himself to Judan once he created our governing body, well, it doesn't sit well with me either.

How about the karateka, his name escapes me now, that's been a Nidan for over 3 decades!! When asked about why he's STILL a Nidan, his answer is..."That's the last rank my Sensei promoted me to before he passed away!" He's the shining example of integrity; a rare commodity in the MA, when rank is the topic.

Edited January 23, 2014 by sensei8

[andym]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

You are right in that playing at striking will not work, but from my limited experience a lot of karate guys can never really strike full force as they could injure each other. The problem then is that you would never know if the strikes would work if you ever needed to use them.

With my even more limited experience of BJJ, rolling with other guys is completely different. You don;t play, you really try your hardest to submit them, which is much harder than it looks and I honestly think that after a few years of training you would know that it would work as you are sparring against real resistance. That's just my opinion

so karate guys cant really hit full force because they might injure? yet kickboxing, MT, sanshou and boxing do practice full force... how about the more likely answer is that most people here think they train in an effective art or manner and really don't.

but nope, no one will admit it.

I don't imply that 'karate guys' can't strike, or that karate is ineffective - which is your implication. Sparring is playing and within karate the culture of non-contact free sparring has become dominate. So, when a visitor to a karate club wants to 'spar', there is a cultural difference. We're going way off topic here though and later I'll start a more relevant thread.

[andym]

Side light on this : many years ago, when this BJJ / MMA verses traditional 'debate' started. Some one turned up at a friends Dojo to 'spar'. Important, he'd sat and watched the training (Goju Ryu) seen what we do. The requested sparring takes place. Starts with feeler jabs and kicks, by both. Then visitor deflects strikes, in for the clinch - dropped by head butt and knee to groin ! That was exactly what was and is done in our training and he got it. Complained about no control and illegal techniques : I kid you not. Understand were I'm coming from. Again this is very off this topic, but....