Youthful Masters.

[sensei8]

With Kukkiwon Taekwondo (sometimes called WTF style) there is a lot of grief given for the young age at which "master" rank is possible. Because we have a junior BB (or "poom"), it is possible to reach 4th Dan at 18 years old. In Korea, a 4th Dan needs to take an instructor's course and pass it in order to teach TKD there. A 4th Dan & successfully completing the course allows one to grade students to BB themselves. (In the US, all one needs is a 4th Dan KKW to recommend a student to BB.) So young masters are not abnormal in KKW Taekwondo.

One thing about KKW Taekwondo is that there are minimum ages in which one can attain certain BB rank, as well as minimum time in grade requirements before one can test to the next grade. For example, one needs to be 36 years old before testing for 7th Dan and be training regularly as a 6th Dan for 6 years. 9th Dan KKW isn't possible before 9 years of training as an 8th Dan: and one must be at least 55 years old.

In KKW Taekwondo, 10th Dan is only posthumous (as of now) and is very rare. There have been a few honorary 10th Dans given, but that too, is a rare thing.

While 4th Dan is considered a rank at which one can teach under one's own name, it is considered a junior rank among master ranks.

In my more than 30 years in Taekwondo, I've met many 4th-5th Dans who were in their 20's (and even a few teen 4th Dans). Some were flighty kids; most were solid martial artists who were teachable.

When I was 25 and a student chaplain in a hospital, a few of the medical students were old high school classmates. By 27, they would be medical doctors with full privileges to practice medicine on their own. Nothing we do on the mat is as important as practicing medicine. Titles can certainly go to one's head, no matter what they are. Whether 9th Dan or white belt, we all have something we can learn; we just need to be open to it.

Very close to what it is in karate. Thanks for the information!!

[sensei8]

I'll voice an unpopular opinion. A belt should be given to a practitioner based on their skill level, regardless of age.

Does maturity and experience not enter into your process ? Plus, all of those I have encountered holding excessive grades are lacking in skill and most are SELF AWARDED grades !

To both posts here...Solid posts!!

[quinteros1963]

The founder of Okinawan Isshin-ryu karate promoted himself to 10th while in his mid 30's - and many of his students came back with high ranks while still in their 20's - and these students including my Goju teacher Peter Urban were pioneers in promoting karate in America in the late 1950's - 60's.

The story I got from one of my instructors who studied at the Agena Dojo on Okinawa was that some of the founder's students, after seeing that the founders of other systems were promoting themselves to 10th Dan, went out and bought a red belt and presented it to Shimabuku. So basically his own students promoted him to 10th Dan.

Who promoted Peter Urban in USA Goju to 10th Dan?

[andym]

Who promoted Peter Urban in USA Goju to 10th Dan?

Peter Urban promoted himself to 10th Dan back in the 1960's.

[sensei8]

Who promoted Peter Urban in USA Goju to 10th Dan?

Peter Urban promoted himself to 10th Dan back in the 1960's.

Lupin1 wrote:

lowereastside wrote:

The founder of Okinawan Isshin-ryu karate promoted himself to 10th while in his mid 30's - and many of his students came back with high ranks while still in their 20's - and these students including my Goju teacher Peter Urban were pioneers in promoting karate in America in the late 1950's - 60's.

The story I got from one of my instructors who studied at the Agena Dojo on Okinawa was that some of the founder's students, after seeing that the founders of other systems were promoting themselves to 10th Dan, went out and bought a red belt and presented it to Shimabuku. So basically his own students promoted him to 10th Dan.

Well, I just don't know what to think anymore about Judan. That rank just leaves a bad taste in my mouth for some reason(s). The MA world is full of Judans, more than we need, imho. I suppose some deserve Judan, but for the most, imho, many don't deserve Judan, especially if they're self-promoted.

Again, what's wrong with holding the last Dan rank as it was awarded to this said person by their Sensei? Nothing! But, they want the rank over knowledge; then so be it!!

I suppose my own Soke promoted himself to Judan when he founded Shindokan Saitou-ryu. There's nothing in our scrolls and/or the By-Laws that speaks about whom he might've received his Judan from. Dai-Soke was promoted to Dai-Soke from Kaicho by Soke, then "earned" his Judan via what's in our By-Laws.

I will NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER accept Judan from ANYBODY and/or ANY GOVERNING BODY!! I didn't want my darn Kudan, I still don't want it, I hate how I got it, I don't like that I was constantly hounded to accept it via our By-Laws, and I don't like that I was put in a position to take a superficial testing cycle to obtain it; I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. I don't care who knows how I feel; everyone within the Shindokan circle knows how I feel. In my heart of hearts, I'm Hachidan. I'm so disgusted with my Kudan, I'm ready to say..."Keep it! I'm done!!".

Aaaaarrrgggghhhhhhhhh!!

[quinteros1963]

After reading your post, looking into "masters" that I have met or trained with, I must say that I am disappointed with rank. I will take rank with a grain of salt from now on. Its sad that many had to award themselves high ranks after breaking from a teacher and creating his "own" style. Others have accepted rank from questionable groups sometimes skipping multiple Dan grades. Where is the honor in that?

[maisweh]

titles do certainly go to peoples heads. personally, the term coach is fine to me, and i get a laugh when people sign papers calling themselves grandmaster or supreme sifu or great soke, whatever that title may be. nothing is more humbling than starting bjj, getting choked and tapped by white belts half your age.

saying you wont respect or wont bow to someone because of how old they are, well thats being condescending and disrespectful. your martial art and rank is not any more valid than anyone elses. if you think it is, go roll with a bjj practitioner or spar with a kickboxer.

stay humble, and stay hungry.

I've just finished with Tang Soo do after reaching my goal of 1st Dan. Looking to do something a bit different and so for now have chosen BJJ. You are right when you say it is humbling rolling with those guys!!! Even the second belt takes like 2 years (Blue) and I'm amazed at the skill level and how they can wrap me up so easily. Then again I have no grappling skills at the moment. None of the guys I trained with, even 5th or 6th dans, would ever win against these blue belts as they are completely different. They also spend their time grappling and can't progress unless they have proved their skills. Whereas a lot of our time was spent doing forms etc.

Although that is true and a very good point, I'd also imagine a blue belt wouldn't be able to strike very well or beat a 5th or 6th dan in a punching and kicking contest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDLEBK5A8aw

^^ Unexpected turn of events here

^^ Judo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk

^^ And everyone has seen this. This is what over inflated ranks with people following blindly leads to. lol

[DWx]

^nice videos. And I don't doubt the skill level of the vast majority of BJJ practitioners. Not wanting to get into a style v style debate but those strikers weren't exactly top notch. In fact so much for being a TKD Blackbelt but the 2nd fight was just 2 guys grappling; they even start from a clinch. If BJJ was the ultimate style we'd still be seeing it dominant in the UFC and similar fighting venues but fighters now recognise the they have to be effective at both stand up and ground work.

Some counter examples:

[andym]

Plus, all of those I have encountered holding excessive grades are lacking in skill and most are SELF AWARDED grades !

For your edification....

http://mfma.weebly.com/about-us.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpfEIAlVKoc&sns=fb

[andym]

As to the video's I'll repeat part of something I posted a little while ago on this subject.

This raises some interesting points :

.....That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work ! Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?