Youthful Masters.

[sensei8]

This is one of those arguments that proves that "the belt doesn't matter," until it does matter.

But perhaps we aren't discussing belts, but ranks, which could be different.

I'll play a little devil's advocate here. Why does one have to be past their physical prime in order to be considered a master? And why not wait to hold judgement on someone or show them respect until after spending some time speaking and training with them? Each should be considered on a case-by-case basis, certainly, but to make a judgement call without any other information is a pretty quick jump to a conclusion.

My sensei said something very poignant on this matter to me once years ago.

If you look at a bunch of competitors, at least in my organization (JKA), you'll see that the people winning the championships both in kumite and especially kata are seldom below their thirties or late 20's at the very lowest (many are even in their 40s). Anyone over the age of 18 is allowed to participate, everyone is obviously considered on an individual basis in a competition, but still you see this trend.

My sensei argued that this is because when looking at a karate-ka's performance over time, there are two important curves to consider: the physical peak, and the mental peak. Given a full life of training most people are at their physically strongest somewhere from 17 to 24 or so (thus most Olympians being so very young). However, with age one's experience level and mental incorporation of this experience into their karate can continue to increase. Where a karate-ka is most technically proficient and actually physically able to use techniques effectively is a combination of both of these two functions.

Around 35 or so a person is still fairly strong, but what's more so, in the 10-15 years of training since their physical peak, they have learned so much through experience, even just on the level of how bodies move, that this increase offsets their decrease in physical stamina and strength. After 45-50 or so, the body decreases a bit more rapidly, but if the mind continues to improve enough, one's karate can accommodate. People who have done this in my opinion are the ones that have cracked the code. They are the ones I would like to train under. Most young masters will simply not have had to deal with the experience of a declining body yet, and may or may not rely too heavily on their heightened physical state to achieve good results. So it's not that their not good, just not experienced.

I think that in a system where rank reflects technical ability in the art fairly well, rank will then naturally follow this trend where most high-level promotions (whatever they may be for your organization) happen from 30 up, depending on a person's special case of course. Sometimes people think too much about strength and misunderstand that this trend of 35-45 peak is artificial, but really, there are just other factors to consider, even just on a performance level alone. This is not even mentioning contribution to the art or responsibilities to students or research or whatever else have you.

Great post.

Do you think this is style/organization specific?

I was always told that for ITF Taekwon-Do international competition, if you don't win a title by the time you are 25, you most likely won't win one. Perhaps tuls (our equivalent to kata) are more forgiving of age but certainly for sparring, you've got to be at your physical peak or you've got no hope. But then again that may be because of what our particular ruleset promotes compared to the JKA's ruleset.

To the bold type above...

I do think that this is more organizational than style. I discern style to speak about the dojo/dojang, and in that, I discern organization to speak about the governing body, the body that dictates to said style/dojo/dojang.

[Shizentai]

Do you think this is style/organization specific?

I was always told that for ITF Taekwon-Do international competition, if you don't win a title by the time you are 25, you most likely won't win one. Perhaps tuls (our equivalent to kata) are more forgiving of age but certainly for sparring, you've got to be at your physical peak or you've got no hope. But then again that may be because of what our particular ruleset promotes compared to the JKA's ruleset.

I do think that this is more organizational than style. I discern style to speak about the dojo/dojang, and in that, I discern organization to speak about the governing body, the body that dictates to said style/dojo/dojang.

I don't have experience with other styles personally, but I've seen these trends in ISKF, WKF and JKA, so it may not be as rare as you'd think. I'm sure physical and mental demands of competition must vary with style, rules and participants, which would logically cause this peak age to fluctuate in either direction.

This is keeping in mind that tournament performance is but one gross measure of aptitude. There is much more that can be learned from an instructor, and from a martial art, than that which wins tournaments. I think most of us agree on that. I just mean to show that even in this one measure, one in which you'd assume youth would dominate, that is not really the case.

For instance Taniyama Takuka's Tourament record started at age 27, though he didn't get 1st place at a national or international competition until age 30, and he continued to win, taking 1st place at the All-Japan in Kumite and kata in various competitions until at age 42.

Here's a video from that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDjgivUYkxc

In truth, even though I am only 27 myself, I'd be disapointed if it were any other way. A martial art is supposed to impart extra protection, to aid a person in overcoming a stronger opponent. That is the success of our species, that we can use mind and spirit to overcome so much that physicality alone cannot.

That's how I want to train and live the rest of my life, as a martial artist that is first and foremost a human being.

[njd]

In Tang Soo Do a master rank is 4th dan which could take say 14 years, which to me seems a little too early as a friend of mine is a 7th dan in Aikido after 35 years of training.

I know of a 4th dan who was 21. He will be due for his 5th dan at the age of 26.

I have to say that he is technically excellent and one of the best in the world in our organisation for forms, point sparring and weapons etc. But then he is a full time MA now.

[lowereastside]

Years ago while driving I passed by a Dojo - and decided to take a look - on the Dojo window was a poster - stating that the instructor had created his own style and was a 10th Dan - at age 21. Then again my karate teacher broke away from the parent organization and promoted himself to 10th Dan at the age of 33/34. I guess whatever makes one happy

[sensei8]

Years ago while driving I passed by a Dojo - and decided to take a look - on the Dojo window was a poster - stating that the instructor had created his own style and was a 10th Dan - at age 21. Then again my karate teacher broke away from the parent organization and promoted himself to 10th Dan at the age of 33/34. I guess whatever makes one happy

21 year old 10th Dan...33/34 year old 10th Dan. What were their ranks before they promoted themselves?? Self-promotion speaks, to me, selfish, no matter the person and no matter the reason(s) and no matter the current rank! Whatever makes one happy is fine, except at the cost of the student bodies betterment.

Imho!!

[njd]

Years ago while driving I passed by a Dojo - and decided to take a look - on the Dojo window was a poster - stating that the instructor had created his own style and was a 10th Dan - at age 21. Then again my karate teacher broke away from the parent organization and promoted himself to 10th Dan at the age of 33/34. I guess whatever makes one happy

To me that is completely wrong. I find it difficult to accept as there wouldn't be any respect from the martial arts world for those grades as they are not really earned as so to me are invalid.

[sensei8]

Years ago while driving I passed by a Dojo - and decided to take a look - on the Dojo window was a poster - stating that the instructor had created his own style and was a 10th Dan - at age 21. Then again my karate teacher broke away from the parent organization and promoted himself to 10th Dan at the age of 33/34. I guess whatever makes one happy

To me that is completely wrong. I find it difficult to accept as there wouldn't be any respect from the martial arts world for those grades as they are not really earned as so to me are invalid.

Forget the world...What about the student body??

[lowereastside]

This is an ongoing thing - that goes back to Okinawa, Japan, Korea...... Chojun Miyagi the founder of Okinawan Goju Karate never gave out rank - after his death many of his students promoted each other from 6th Dan up to 10th Dan - some of these students were in their 30's to 40's. Gogen " Cat " Yamaguchi from Japanese Goju-Kai never received a rank form Chojun Miyagi but in the early 1950's was ranked 10th Dan at age 40. The founder of Okinawan Isshin-ryu karate promoted himself to 10th while in his mid 30's - and many of his students came back with high ranks while still in their 20's - and these students including my Goju teacher Peter Urban were pioneers in promoting karate in America in the late 1950's - 60's. And how many Koreans came to the USA with inflated ranks of 7-8 Degree's while still in their mid to late 20's. And I could go on and on. Do I agree with this? NO I Don't. But it is what it is.

[bushido_man96]

This is one of those arguments that proves that "the belt doesn't matter," until it does matter.

But perhaps we aren't discussing belts, but ranks, which could be different.

I'll play a little devil's advocate here. Why does one have to be past their physical prime in order to be considered a master? And why not wait to hold judgement on someone or show them respect until after spending some time speaking and training with them? Each should be considered on a case-by-case basis, certainly, but to make a judgement call without any other information is a pretty quick jump to a conclusion.

My sensei said something very poignant on this matter to me once years ago.

If you look at a bunch of competitors, at least in my organization (JKA), you'll see that the people winning the championships both in kumite and especially kata are seldom below their thirties or late 20's at the very lowest (many are even in their 40s). Anyone over the age of 18 is allowed to participate, everyone is obviously considered on an individual basis in a competition, but still you see this trend.

My sensei argued that this is because when looking at a karate-ka's performance over time, there are two important curves to consider: the physical peak, and the mental peak. Given a full life of training most people are at their physically strongest somewhere from 17 to 24 or so (thus most Olympians being so very young). However, with age one's experience level and mental incorporation of this experience into their karate can continue to increase. Where a karate-ka is most technically proficient and actually physically able to use techniques effectively is a combination of both of these two functions.

Around 35 or so a person is still fairly strong, but what's more so, in the 10-15 years of training since their physical peak, they have learned so much through experience, even just on the level of how bodies move, that this increase offsets their decrease in physical stamina and strength. After 45-50 or so, the body decreases a bit more rapidly, but if the mind continues to improve enough, one's karate can accommodate. People who have done this in my opinion are the ones that have cracked the code. They are the ones I would like to train under. Most young masters will simply not have had to deal with the experience of a declining body yet, and may or may not rely too heavily on their heightened physical state to achieve good results. So it's not that their not good, just not experienced.

I think that in a system where rank reflects technical ability in the art fairly well, rank will then naturally follow this trend where most high-level promotions (whatever they may be for your organization) happen from 30 up, depending on a person's special case of course. Sometimes people think too much about strength and misunderstand that this trend of 35-45 peak is artificial, but really, there are just other factors to consider, even just on a performance level alone. This is not even mentioning contribution to the art or responsibilities to students or research or whatever else have you.

I can't argue that experience comes with time. That's generally the way that works. But, everyone's experiences are different. There are lots of Martial Artists out there with 40 years of experience and no fights to their name. And that's ok. Then there are those with 40 years of experience, and 10 of them as a bouncer, or LEO, or something like that. There will be a difference in experiences.

Then, we can look at someone who is 45 years old, who has 30 years of experience in the Martial Arts, but many would probably view them differently than a 70 year old Martial Artist with 30 years of Martial Arts experience. I just think that it goes deeper in figuring out someone's level and ability than how old they are, how many years in, and if they do well in tournaments or not.

[Lupin1]

The founder of Okinawan Isshin-ryu karate promoted himself to 10th while in his mid 30's - and many of his students came back with high ranks while still in their 20's - and these students including my Goju teacher Peter Urban were pioneers in promoting karate in America in the late 1950's - 60's.

The story I got from one of my instructors who studied at the Agena Dojo on Okinawa was that some of the founder's students, after seeing that the founders of other systems were promoting themselves to 10th Dan, went out and bought a red belt and presented it to Shimabuku. So basically his own students promoted him to 10th Dan.