Youthful Masters.

[ShoriKid]

I'm of two minds. I'll give you the rebel side for the fun of it. Nagamine Shoshin founded Matsubayashi Ryu at 40. Kanryo Higashionna started teaching his own martial art in Okinawa at 29 years of age that most credit with being the formation of Goju Ryu, Miyagi Chojun of Goju, 45 when Japan recognized the art offically.. Mabuni Kenwa of Shito Ryu was 40. Tatsuo Shimabuku names his style Isshin Ryu at age 48, the old man of the group. None of these men, founders and legends of "traditional" martial arts, are 50 when they found a style. No one dismisses what they've done or the fact that they founded a style because of their age.

Some high dans are just shodans who have one year of experience many times over. They are not shodans with thirty years of growth. However, they've done their time and can preform technique, but their understanding and direction, drive and ability haven't really advanced. Isn't it, as Sensei8 says, the proof on the floor?

[sensei8]

I'm of two minds. I'll give you the rebel side for the fun of it. Nagamine Shoshin founded Matsubayashi Ryu at 40. Kanryo Higashionna started teaching his own martial art in Okinawa at 29 years of age that most credit with being the formation of Goju Ryu, Miyagi Chojun of Goju, 45 when Japan recognized the art offically.. Mabuni Kenwa of Shito Ryu was 40. Tatsuo Shimabuku names his style Isshin Ryu at age 48, the old man of the group. None of these men, founders and legends of "traditional" martial arts, are 50 when they found a style. No one dismisses what they've done or the fact that they founded a style because of their age.

Some high dans are just shodans who have one year of experience many times over. They are not shodans with thirty years of growth. However, they've done their time and can preform technique, but their understanding and direction, drive and ability haven't really advanced. Isn't it, as Sensei8 says, the proof on the floor?

Solid post!! Some great historical facts!!

[mal103]

I think the word master is used too often, it indicates that they know a lot and are very good at it with many years training. I think it should never be self appointed, only used to describe someone like Funakoshi or Kanazawa for example.

One of our students went to another club before ours and was told that everyone had to address the Sensei as master! She ended up telling him where to go.

[sensei8]

I think the word master is used too often, it indicates that they know a lot and are very good at it with many years training. I think it should never be self appointed, only used to describe someone like Funakoshi or Kanazawa for example.

One of our students went to another club before ours and was told that everyone had to address the Sensei as master! She ended up telling him where to go.

Solid post!!

I think that while the word "master" is used too often, it's used too often because either one doesn't understand the true meaning behind said word, and/or, it's because they don't know any other expressive word, and/or, it's because they were told that word by someone close to them, and/or, they have too much self-aggrandizement issues. For whatever the reason(s) may or may not be, I agree, it's a word that's used much too often.

Edited December 29, 2013 by sensei8

[wagnerk]

I'm of two minds. I'll give you the rebel side for the fun of it. Nagamine Shoshin founded Matsubayashi Ryu at 40. Kanryo Higashionna started teaching his own martial art in Okinawa at 29 years of age that most credit with being the formation of Goju Ryu, Miyagi Chojun of Goju, 45 when Japan recognized the art offically.. Mabuni Kenwa of Shito Ryu was 40. Tatsuo Shimabuku names his style Isshin Ryu at age 48, the old man of the group. None of these men, founders and legends of "traditional" martial arts, are 50 when they found a style. No one dismisses what they've done or the fact that they founded a style because of their age.

Some high dans are just shodans who have one year of experience many times over. They are not shodans with thirty years of growth. However, they've done their time and can preform technique, but their understanding and direction, drive and ability haven't really advanced. Isn't it, as Sensei8 says, the proof on the floor?

There's no denying this (excellent facts), however they weren't 10th Dans plus they knew their stuff.

[ShoriKid]

I'm of two minds. I'll give you the rebel side for the fun of it. Nagamine Shoshin founded Matsubayashi Ryu at 40. Kanryo Higashionna started teaching his own martial art in Okinawa at 29 years of age that most credit with being the formation of Goju Ryu, Miyagi Chojun of Goju, 45 when Japan recognized the art offically.. Mabuni Kenwa of Shito Ryu was 40. Tatsuo Shimabuku names his style Isshin Ryu at age 48, the old man of the group. None of these men, founders and legends of "traditional" martial arts, are 50 when they found a style. No one dismisses what they've done or the fact that they founded a style because of their age.

Some high dans are just shodans who have one year of experience many times over. They are not shodans with thirty years of growth. However, they've done their time and can preform technique, but their understanding and direction, drive and ability haven't really advanced. Isn't it, as Sensei8 says, the proof on the floor?

There's no denying this (excellent facts), however they weren't 10th Dans plus they knew their stuff.

No, they were a notch past a 10th dan. They had the nerve to found their own styles. In which they would be 10th dan, or whatever the highest rank was. My examples are just there to point out the hypocrisy of folks complaining about "young" people obtaining high rank. All of these men in effect granted themselves high rank by forming their own style. Without the first care for a persons training or ability, we would all scream to high heavens if people did that now. See up thread where the worry over people under 30 making 5th dan. Now imagine a local cop, a guy in his middle to late 30's, in your neighborhood who's trained in karate for say 20 years and coaches the local police force through an MMA event forms his own style. What would your reaction be?

[quinteros1963]

I suppose my problem is that I don't hold much value in a 1st dan. Probably because they are a dime a dozen in my style and you can obtain one after 3-4 years of training. Subsequently IMHO, why not give to young people? As sensei8 says, the proof is on the floor. Belt doesn't matter unless it is backed up by skills and knowledge.

I think this could be a part of the issue if anyone can achieve 1st dan in such a short time and young age. I know a young man that is a black belt after 3 years of training and only 8 years on this earth. So what will this say about his 2nd, and 3rd degree promotion and so on? At some point he will be another young master. I agree that the proof is on the floor, but at what point is the line drawn. Can an 8 year old defend himself if attacked by a untrained 11 year old? Can he demonstrate kata or basics at the proper level? If so great, if not start a junior ranking system. Of course this varies from one org to another. I'll respect it either way. Just asking for your valued opinions.

[sensei8]

I suppose my problem is that I don't hold much value in a 1st dan. Probably because they are a dime a dozen in my style and you can obtain one after 3-4 years of training. Subsequently IMHO, why not give to young people? As sensei8 says, the proof is on the floor. Belt doesn't matter unless it is backed up by skills and knowledge.

I think this could be a part of the issue if anyone can achieve 1st dan in such a short time and young age. I know a young man that is a black belt after 3 years of training and only 8 years on this earth. So what will this say about his 2nd, and 3rd degree promotion and so on? At some point he will be another young master. I agree that the proof is on the floor, but at what point is the line drawn. Can an 8 year old defend himself if attacked by a untrained 11 year old? Can he demonstrate kata or basics at the proper level? If so great, if not start a junior ranking system. Of course this varies from one org to another. I'll respect it either way. Just asking for your valued opinions.

On the floor; there is no line to draw, nor is there any drawn line!!

[quinteros1963]

My experience and rank relative to many of you is limited at best. In the years that I have trained most of the guys that I have met with high rank were older. For example, 57 year-old 7th dan with 42 years of training; 53 year-old 5th dan with 35 years of training. 60 year-old 6th dan with 50 year training. The younger guys(20-somethings),while very good, were usually 1st and 2nd Dan. I could go on, but I mention this to say that from what I have experienced and been told is that master titles are reserved for older more experienced martial artists. Now that I am meeting masters at age 27 it is at odds with what I have experienced. Learning something contrary to what one takes a truth can at times be uncomfortable.

Since posting I found that this particular gentleman started training at age 3.

[Wastelander]

To ShoriKid's point, I believe that Kano Jigoro founded judo at the ripe old age of 22.