Youthful Masters.

[ps1]

Personally, I don't get it. In BJJ, it's literally impossible. If memory serves, 9th degree (our highest rank) requires you to be 67years old. Black Belt requires you to be at least 19 and the first 5 degrees have 3 years between each. So you could be 5th degree at 34.

In Karate you had to wait the same time as the degree you were approaching. Plus, you had to be 20 to get second degree. That made you 32 at minimum for 5th, I believe.

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to have someone so young ranked so highly. But, to each their own.

[ShotokanMaster]

27 or 30 having 10th degree are you kidding me no way im 35 and barely a orange belt in American kenpo and barely gonna be green in shotokan and on January or February im gonna be purple belt in american kenpo ill be age 37 before i get my 1st dan then another year or so to get my nidan

[wagnerk]

IMO, while it is possible, it would be highly improbable for a person in their 30's to be awarded a 9th Dan (let alone a 10th Dan).

There are several things that have to be taken into consideration:

1. The theoretical & physical aspects of the grade, as normally (as the martial arts take a lifetime to master) people going for that grade are alot older than 30 (so physically a person in their 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's may not be able to do the things a younger person could do).

2. There is also the positive contribution/services to the art, itself for grades going for 5th Dan and above.

3. There is also the status of the organisation/person that awards the grade (eg self promotion, an organisation that awards grades with no real legitimacy).

[quinteros1963]

Why are we so quick to attain high ranks? Do you think its feasible for someone who starts at 4 to become a black belt and move up to 2-3rd dan and higher prior to age 18? Now I know of some young men who started young and are very good, but they don't carry master rank.

On another note I have read that many of the founders of Arts received titles at young ages as well.

[sensei8]

Why are we so quick to attain high ranks? Do you think its feasible for someone who starts at 4 to become a black belt and move up to 2-3rd dan and higher prior to age 18? Now I know of some young men who started young and are very good, but they don't carry master rank.

On another note I have read that many of the founders of Arts received titles at young ages as well.

We live in an age of instant satisfaction and gratification, therefore, the obtainment of high rank fuels the carnal fire within said practitioner of the MA.

I do not think it's feasible for someone under the age of 18 to be a 2nd-3rd Dan. It goes way beyond the sense of feasibility to even imagine it to be so. Many will speak about, if the child can do what the adult can do, then why not? Rank goes way beyond technical abilities, and in that, it requires maturity.

I groveled about being a JBB for 5 years, but I began to understand, about my 3rd year as a JBB why Soke had made that rule in our By-Laws. I wasn't mature enough to carry that monumental responsibility. What responsibility? The responsibility to understand that fighting isn't the only available option when confronted, and to not "show-off" to other children, and in that, it sometimes leads to the child BB bullying other kids because said child BB isn't grasping the aspect of one being humble before others.

Can one even imagine a child 3rd Dan standing amongst adult 3rd Dan's, and then be paired up for Kumite, and age is immaterial!! I can see the child 3rd Dan freaking out!! Why shouldn't the child 3rd Dan engage with an adult 3rd Dan? They're technically equals...right?!? Bow, and then rock-on!!

Why is the child 3rd Dan STILL in the child class, and not in the adult class with the other black belts?? Hhhmmmm...

Well, that's different or that's not the same thing or whatever else??!!?? Either you can or you can't!!

[quinteros1963]

Thanks for your insight, I appreciate all of you!

[DWx]

Why are we so quick to attain high ranks? Do you think its feasible for someone who starts at 4 to become a black belt and move up to 2-3rd dan and higher prior to age 18? Now I know of some young men who started young and are very good, but they don't carry master rank.

On another note I have read that many of the founders of Arts received titles at young ages as well.

We live in an age of instant satisfaction and gratification, therefore, the obtainment of high rank fuels the carnal fire within said practitioner of the MA.

I do not think it's feasible for someone under the age of 18 to be a 2nd-3rd Dan. It goes way beyond the sense of feasibility to even imagine it to be so. Many will speak about, if the child can do what the adult can do, then why not? Rank goes way beyond technical abilities, and in that, it requires maturity.

I groveled about being a JBB for 5 years, but I began to understand, about my 3rd year as a JBB why Soke had made that rule in our By-Laws. I wasn't mature enough to carry that monumental responsibility. What responsibility? The responsibility to understand that fighting isn't the only available option when confronted, and to not "show-off" to other children, and in that, it sometimes leads to the child BB bullying other kids because said child BB isn't grasping the aspect of one being humble before others.

Can one even imagine a child 3rd Dan standing amongst adult 3rd Dan's, and then be paired up for Kumite, and age is immaterial!! I can see the child 3rd Dan freaking out!! Why shouldn't the child 3rd Dan engage with an adult 3rd Dan? They're technically equals...right?!? Bow, and then rock-on!!

Why is the child 3rd Dan STILL in the child class, and not in the adult class with the other black belts?? Hhhmmmm...

Well, that's different or that's not the same thing or whatever else??!!?? Either you can or you can't!!

Doesn't this all depend on the value you you place on a blackbelt? It seems that giving a child a blackbelt is some sort of sacrilege but really it depends on the value it holds.

To the bit in bold, why would that be the case only when a child is a blackbelt? The same issue could occur when the child is a brown belt or blue. Or do you deliberately not teach the person certain techniques until they have passed that grading. Surely you should instill in any child practicing MA that showing off is not acceptable and that fighting isn't the only option. When you teach them a punch or a kick you as the teacher have that responsibility from day 1 not just from when you hand them a particular coloured belt.

For the record, in ITF TKD you can obtain a 1st dan at 13, 2nd at 14 and 3rd at 16. I took my gradings at 14, 16 and 19 respectively and if I pass my 4th dan next year, I'll hit that at 23. Think of it what you will but like I said, it depends on the value you place on that belt.

[sensei8]

Why are we so quick to attain high ranks? Do you think its feasible for someone who starts at 4 to become a black belt and move up to 2-3rd dan and higher prior to age 18? Now I know of some young men who started young and are very good, but they don't carry master rank.

On another note I have read that many of the founders of Arts received titles at young ages as well.

We live in an age of instant satisfaction and gratification, therefore, the obtainment of high rank fuels the carnal fire within said practitioner of the MA.

I do not think it's feasible for someone under the age of 18 to be a 2nd-3rd Dan. It goes way beyond the sense of feasibility to even imagine it to be so. Many will speak about, if the child can do what the adult can do, then why not? Rank goes way beyond technical abilities, and in that, it requires maturity.

I groveled about being a JBB for 5 years, but I began to understand, about my 3rd year as a JBB why Soke had made that rule in our By-Laws. I wasn't mature enough to carry that monumental responsibility. What responsibility? The responsibility to understand that fighting isn't the only available option when confronted, and to not "show-off" to other children, and in that, it sometimes leads to the child BB bullying other kids because said child BB isn't grasping the aspect of one being humble before others.

Can one even imagine a child 3rd Dan standing amongst adult 3rd Dan's, and then be paired up for Kumite, and age is immaterial!! I can see the child 3rd Dan freaking out!! Why shouldn't the child 3rd Dan engage with an adult 3rd Dan? They're technically equals...right?!? Bow, and then rock-on!!

Why is the child 3rd Dan STILL in the child class, and not in the adult class with the other black belts?? Hhhmmmm...

Well, that's different or that's not the same thing or whatever else??!!?? Either you can or you can't!!

Doesn't this all depend on the value you you place on a blackbelt? It seems that giving a child a blackbelt is some sort of sacrilege but really it depends on the value it holds.

To the bit in bold, why would that be the case only when a child is a blackbelt? The same issue could occur when the child is a brown belt or blue. Or do you deliberately not teach the person certain techniques until they have passed that grading. Surely you should instill in any child practicing MA that showing off is not acceptable and that fighting isn't the only option. When you teach them a punch or a kick you as the teacher have that responsibility from day 1 not just from when you hand them a particular coloured belt.

For the record, in ITF TKD you can obtain a 1st dan at 13, 2nd at 14 and 3rd at 16. I took my gradings at 14, 16 and 19 respectively and if I pass my 4th dan next year, I'll hit that at 23. Think of it what you will but like I said, it depends on the value you place on that belt.

With some governing bodies, it is a sacrilege to award a BB to a child. Not with us, except we only award JBB to those that are under 18 years old, and that means no additional Dan ranks until after one has earned a Shodan. Shodan isn't a JBB rank with us.

Value differs from one governing body to governing body, and in that, value differs from practitioner to practitioner. Practitioners within said governing body MUST adhere to what the governing body has decided. If one wants to leave said governing body for whatever reason(s), then leave, to me, it's just that simple.

To the bold type above, it's not just about the kids. However, this topic is speaking about kids. Both the kids and the adults should be held to the same expectations concerning ANY RANK, not just the BB.

Also, I do not hold back techniques to be taught. What I don't do is teach techniques that aren't within their current rank. I don't teach the white belt things that are meant for the green belt, and I don't teach the green belt things that are meant for the black belt. Why? They're not ready for that which isn't meant for them. Within said rank, I'll teach them everything, and I mean everything, because I don't believe in hidden techniques. Never have, never will. Would you teach a white belt a green belt technique? I wouldn't because as a white belt, they're just learning to crawl within the MA. To teach them techniques that are beyond their understanding is doing them a injustice. If not, then get rid of the belts and teach them whatever whenever and hope for the best.

1st graders don't learn things that a 12th grader is learning for obvious reason. This is the same for me and our Hombu!! In that, I instill in each and every student the morals and tenets of the MA from day one. If they violate them, they're disciplined, and if their actions continue, then they're banned. No exceptions!!

I answered the question that this topic and/or poster asked. I don't approve of a child Shodan and above. What happens in other styles is their given right, I respect their reasons, and I don't condemn them.

Danielle, I've told you many times that I totally respect you, and in that, I respect your BB. I've told you that I've respected your 3rd Dan, and I've told you the reasons why that I do. If you were at the other Dan ranks at ages that I don't approve of, well, that means very little to me because I value your knowledge, I value your experience, I value your Dan rank, I value you for who you are, I value you as a person who's a solid 3rd Dan. I've told you before that I consider you one of the most solid 3rd Dan's that I've ever had the honor of knowing!! Now and forever!! It's not what you were then, it's about what you are now!!

I echo what our Soke has declared through his By-Laws; I don't apologize for it.

If I've hurt you, I'm sorry, it was never my intent to do so.

I honor your 3rd Dan in TKD, and I'll value your 4th Dan whenever that happens.

[DWx]

If I've hurt you, I'm sorry, it was never my intent to do so.

Of course you haven't Bob I merely probed your response for some further discussion.

I suppose my problem is that I don't hold much value in a 1st dan. Probably because they are a dime a dozen in my style and you can obtain one after 3-4 years of training. Subsequently IMHO, why not give to young people? As sensei8 says, the proof is on the floor. Belt doesn't matter unless it is backed up by skills and knowledge.

[sensei8]

If I've hurt you, I'm sorry, it was never my intent to do so.

Of course you haven't Bob I merely probed your response for some further discussion.

I suppose my problem is that I don't hold much value in a 1st dan. Probably because they are a dime a dozen in my style and you can obtain one after 3-4 years of training. Subsequently IMHO, why not give to young people? As sensei8 says, the proof is on the floor. Belt doesn't matter unless it is backed up by skills and knowledge.

I'm glad to hear that I've not hurt you!!

"Why not give to young people?" Why award them at all, no matter the age? Rank is subjective, especially in the Dan ranks. Scary to say the least.

It's possible that the 1st Dan is the problem. Why? Once they get the taste of it, they want it more and more, in the way of rank identifiers. People in some noted styles after the founder had passed away, went from a 7th Dan right to 10th Dan, just that fast. That angers me much, much more than a child BB!!

I've asked this, like forever. What was wrong with being a 7th Dan? Was it so bad that only having the 10th Dan made their life seem more full and meaningful? For that type of MAist, I bow to the child BB way before I'd ever bow to them!!