Kata Question

[JonHunter]

.Hi,

Regardless of style of the karate being practiced should the techniques included within the styles katas be taught/learnt as singular strikes/blocks/stances before learning the kata as a whole.

Now that may seem a stupid question, right?

Now im a student of GKR (stop groaning,ha) and im looking at what's involved with Saifa.

Stances In Saifa: Saifa commonly uses four basic stances, Sumo (shiko datchi), Cat (neko ashi datchi), Long forward (zenkutsu datchi) and Pigeon toe stance (sanchin datchi). It also incorporates two advanced stances, one legged Heron stance (Sagi ashi datchi) and Reverse cat stance (kosa datchi).Strikes In Saifa: Saifa’s most commonly used strikes are Backfists (ura uchi) and both groin and head level Hammer fists (tettsui). It also uses the Simultaneous double punch (dan tsuki), Short punch (shito-tsuki) and Stomach level punch (chudan tsuki)

As far as i know Sagi ashi datchi, kosa datchi, tettsui and dan tsuki are not even part of the syllibus? which seems a little strange to me.

Presumably this is not the case in Goju (Goju kata, right?)

thanks

Jon

[sensei8]

.Hi,

Regardless of style of the karate being practiced should the techniques included within the styles katas be taught/learnt as singular strikes/blocks/stances before learning the kata as a whole.

Now that may seem a stupid question, right?

Now im a student of GKR (stop groaning,ha) and im looking at what's involved with Saifa.

Stances In Saifa: Saifa commonly uses four basic stances, Sumo (shiko datchi), Cat (neko ashi datchi), Long forward (zenkutsu datchi) and Pigeon toe stance (sanchin datchi). It also incorporates two advanced stances, one legged Heron stance (Sagi ashi datchi) and Reverse cat stance (kosa datchi).Strikes In Saifa: Saifa’s most commonly used strikes are Backfists (ura uchi) and both groin and head level Hammer fists (tettsui). It also uses the Simultaneous double punch (dan tsuki), Short punch (shito-tsuki) and Stomach level punch (chudan tsuki)

As far as i know Sagi ashi datchi, kosa datchi, tettsui and dan tsuki are not even part of the syllibus? which seems a little strange to me.

Presumably this is not the case in Goju (Goju kata, right?)

thanks

Jon

First of all, Welcome to KF!!

Secondly, there's no such thing as a dumb/stupid question, imho.

To the bold type above...

I believe that techniques should be taught to, at first, singularly, so that said techniques can be learnt properly. One can learn said techniques by just doing the kata, but, imho, that's akin to being blind. At sometime, those said learnt singular techniques must be learnt in combinations because a singular technique will not always be enough.

But, not all techniques found within a syllabus are found within a styles kata's. Kata allows the expression of transitions, and in Oyo, one finds those techniques that aren't expressed in the kata syllabus/curriculum.

[wagnerk]

Regardless of style of the karate being practiced should the techniques included within the styles katas be taught/learnt as singular strikes/blocks/stances before learning the kata as a whole...

Not necessarily, remember kata is also a training tool. However in the beginning, more often than not, the techniques are normally taught before the kata.

Now that may seem a stupid question, right?...

There are no stupid questions... Well I should say that the only stupid question is the one not asked.

Now im a student of GKR (stop groaning,ha) and im looking at what's involved with Saifa...

I guess each to their own

Stances In Saifa: Saifa commonly uses four basic stances, Sumo (shiko datchi), Cat (neko ashi datchi), Long forward (zenkutsu datchi) and Pigeon toe stance (sanchin datchi). It also incorporates two advanced stances, one legged Heron stance (Sagi ashi datchi) and Reverse cat stance (kosa datchi).Strikes In Saifa: Saifa’s most commonly used strikes are Backfists (ura uchi) and both groin and head level Hammer fists (tettsui). It also uses the Simultaneous double punch (dan tsuki), Short punch (shito-tsuki) and Stomach level punch (chudan tsuki)

As far as i know Sagi ashi datchi, kosa datchi, tettsui and dan tsuki are not even part of the syllibus? which seems a little strange to me.

Presumably this is not the case in Goju (Goju kata, right?)

Generally, just because something isn't listed on the syllabus, don't mean that it can't be implied. For instance in our association which teaches Tang Soo Do; lock, throws, pins, etc aren't specifically implied in the syllabus but because these are the katas we practice them (for our Dan grading we demonstrated them).

Now it's slightly different in GKR, as alot of things were stripped out of it, eg the number of kicks, the number of stances and strikes, etc. However as it is in the katas that you practice, it is implied. However from what I've seen from GKR gradings if it's not explicitly stated you won't be tested on it (even though your kata be graded).

The question for you is are you practicing karate to pass the exams/gradings or are you practicing karate for something more?

[Harkon72]

Combinations of single techniques are Kihon,

Whole forms of Kihon are Kata,

The application of Kata is Kumite or Combat.

These are the three K's of Karate; if you don't have all three then you practice something else.

[Kusotare]

Semantics I know, but arguably Kihon is only an extrapolation of kata!

And, as for working to a syllabus, well, I tend to think a syllabus is there to help you pass exams. Any instructor worth their salt will work way beyond this.

And speaking of semantics JonHunter - where is that quote from - because it's extremely flawed!

K.

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

Hi JonHunter,

You raise an excellent question that is more or less valid for most Karate styles: why is there such an obvious gap between the techniques in the Kata vs. the actually practiced Kihon? Why is there so much focus on Zenkutsu Dachi & Seiken Zuki, when these make up only a small portion in the Kata (especially in Goju Ryu Kata, where Seiken Zuki is almost completely absent)? Why do so few Shotokan dojos practice throws when those are so obviously present in the Kata? Maybe one day the Karate community wakes up and starts thinking about this question....i would welcome that day!

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

Regarding Sagi Ashi Dachi in Saifa, that could be more likely viewed as Hiza Geri ( knee kick ) and should be practiced thoroughly, because it is so very useful in self defense situations.

[Harkon72]

The scourge of modern Karate, in my opinion is that people see Kata as just something to learn for your next grading test. I have voiced my view here on the forum before, but for Karatedo to blossom, it must grow from the Kata, this is where the Style is. I may sound like an antiquated grumbling fogey, but if you don't practice the three K's, then I'm sorry, your Karate is just stylized Kickboxing.

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

Regarding the double punch in Saifa, it serves more likely another function, e.g., the end of a move where you push down/away a shooting attacker (who is trying to tackle you). You respond by pulling your leg back and control the attacker by pushing him down. This should be practiced, but if your dojo does not even practice tackles you won't see this application, either...

[sensei8]

Semantics I know, but arguably Kihon is only an extrapolation of kata!

And, as for working to a syllabus, well, I tend to think a syllabus is there to help you pass exams. Any instructor worth their salt will work way beyond this.

And speaking of semantics JonHunter - where is that quote from - because it's extremely flawed!

K.

Solid post!!