Traditional MA; No Longer Respected!?!

[xnovak1023]

Not to derail this thread, but what the last few posts speak towards affects the core, and integrity the surrounds Traditional MA, from yesterday to today.

If the integrity is auctioned off to the highest bidder, then what the forefathers of the MA had passed off to us, it's now tainted. So much so, that the layperson loses the respect for what the MA has fought so hard for. Not just for yesterday and today, but for the future of the MA.

These types affect what little respect remains, and whatever else is felt towards the Traditons of the MA.

In the video link provided by Kusotare shows how little respect is given to the Traditions handed down by the founders; some of the greatest MAist that ever lived, imho. This video link, I believe, shows Professor Gary Lee. I think he's the voice you hear, and he's the one that's seen passing out the certs, and introducing others, and so on and so on.

Looking at Professor Gary Lee's MA Bio, it stretches from floor to ceiling. Traditions, imho, doesn't speak about the importance of oneself over the MA. But, it's seen over and over again because these individuals don't care about the integrity of the MA, nor its Traditions. Self-aggrandizement isn't a MA Tenet, and in that, it's not about the search of platitude's, but the MA is about the search for MA applied effective knowledge.

I can fit all of my platitudes on a few sentences.

Traditions are losing ground more and more each day. When I saw what I saw on the aforementioned video link, the more I watched it, the angrier I became. It's one thing to receive one platitude after another, if warranted and if they're legitimate, but to make that the soul purpose of their MA betterment is another thing.

The layperson shouldn't determine the course of the MA! But they do. They dictate what a MAist should be if that said MAist wants to do business with us, or if that said school wants them to be their student.

I suppose what irks me the most is that we're all lumped together by the layperson as one that lacks integrity. How can we be separated? By one thing, PROOF IS ON THE FLOOR!! It's not found around my waist and it's not hung upon any wall.

Traditions ARE suppose to be a good thing!

Nailed it! ( o.o)b

One thing that drives me away when searching for a new school in a new art is the instructor trying to sell me on the time needed to achieve their "black belt." And then how since I have prior MA experience, they'd be willing to double, even triple grade me. (As long as you'd pay all testing fees, of course.) The black belt mill is seemingly to be the son of the McDojo, and the McDojo is the exiled son of Traditionalists, or in some cases someone who has every Bruce Lee movie on VHS and became a "Master" from such study.

[quinteros1963]

Still, I'm wondering. The link showed me two things about what I saw. One: Anyone in that organization can pass any said test. Two: If fees are paid, that makes it [passing said test] so. Who can respect that type of tradition? I can't!!

I'm not sure but I think the idea of the gathering was to have a multistylistic seminar where ideas could be exchanged and of course rank issued by a board of high ranked martial artists. Professor Lee is an accomplished practitioner and author. I have come across him at various tournaments in Houston. It seems that you are right in that you show up with a check and you pass. This is not traditional though, he is associated more with sport karate (there is a huge difference). I'm no Sensei but I saw poor balance in some of the kata that is not indicative of brown or black belt, let alone higher level dans. Who am I, but a lil shodan.

[sensei8]

Still, I'm wondering. The link showed me two things about what I saw. One: Anyone in that organization can pass any said test. Two: If fees are paid, that makes it [passing said test] so. Who can respect that type of tradition? I can't!!

I'm not sure but I think the idea of the gathering was to have a multistylistic seminar where ideas could be exchanged and of course rank issued by a board of high ranked martial artists. Professor Lee is an accomplished practitioner and author. I have come across him at various tournaments in Houston. It seems that you are right in that you show up with a check and you pass. This is not traditional though, he is associated more with sport karate (there is a huge difference). I'm no Sensei but I saw poor balance in some of the kata that is not indicative of brown or black belt, let alone higher level dans. Who am I, but a lil shodan.

To the bold type above...I agree.

If they had tested at my Hombu, each and everyone of them would've failed unanimously. But, that's why they tested where they did: A PASS!!

[njd]

I trained in a TMA (Tang Soo Do) for around 5 years. I enjoyed it while I was there and had a feeling of achievement when I passed my 1st Dan.

Now that I'm not there I can look at it from a different point of view, as my judgement is no longer biased towards defending TSD.

The reason people look down on TMA is that they are not as practical as say MMA full stop. Look at it this way- MMA have no forms, no bowing, no terminology, no lectures of why we do this etc, no line up in grade order, sit down in grade order etc etc.

A lot more of the class is for conditioning and actual useful sparring.

If someone trained in MMA for 5 years or a TMA for 5 years I struggle to see how the TMA in general could ever compete in a fight with MMA.

To me the reason I started TSD was to learn a self defence and stay fit. It def helped me keep fit but I really question if it helped with self defence. Being a black belt to the outside world means that you can fight. In reality as TMA know that is not true- it means that you learned and practised the syllabus to a decent quality and stuck at it for a few years. From my experience anyone can get a black belt in Karate eventually.

In BJJ as I understand, if you are not good enough you will never become a black belt. I think that undermines the TMA too.

A few of my friends trained in MMA for about a year and the had a go at cage fighting and doing pretty well. I know that none of my fellow TSD practitioners would ever be ready for that even after 5 years. I know people will say that TMA's are not interested in competing but in reality I think that's because they are happy making a living teaching etc but probably know deep down that they would not get very far against MMA fighters.

[Kusotare]

Professor Lee is an accomplished practitioner and author. I have come across him at various tournaments in Houston. It seems that you are right in that you show up with a check and you pass.

We're talking about this guy, yes?

This is not traditional though, he is associated more with sport karate (there is a huge difference).

It's certainly not the traditional I know, but the point is, people from outside the MA world see the keiko-gi and belts and associate it with being tradition and therefore bona fide!

K.

[andym]

The reason people look down on TMA is that they are not as practical as say MMA full stop. Look at it this way- MMA have no forms, no bowing, no terminology, no lectures of why we do this etc, no line up in grade order, sit down in grade order etc etc.

Interestingly, I dealt with this in my answer :

I'm finding an interest, a lot of questions. Plus, alot of coaches miss the respect and discipline of a traditional class.

But this may be only in Britain, as many MMA coaches come from a TMA background

To me the reason I started TSD was to learn a self defense and stay fit. It def helped me keep fit but I really question if it helped with self defense. Being a black belt to the outside world means that you can fight.

Perhaps it's an issue of the aims of the specific club ? TMA can and does teach high effective self defense, but in a stylized and long winded way. It's methodology is based on a gradual learning process.

From my experience anyone can get a black belt in Karate eventually. In BJJ as I understand, if you are not good enough you will never become a black belt.

In Karate this should never be the case ! Is this part of the problem ? In TMA, it should be just the same as in BJJ (it always was and is the case over here in GB - excluding the McDojo's) : If you are not good enough you will never become a black belt.

It must be fully understood the the aims of TMA and MMA are very different. A cage fight is a false example. Yes a TMA practitioner has problems against a MMA practitioner. It's the old chestnut of the difference between contact training and non-contact training. One last point from my own experience. I'm 54 and fit enough and able enough to visit MMA clubs and win respect for my ability and fitness among the young MMA students. There coaches are often younger than I am, but most no longer part take in the class as such, but purely coach. Why, on both point ? Injury. MMA is a young persons game, the level of training and the injuries involved in competing etc, means it is unsustainable as a training method longer term - unlike Traditional Martial Arts. Which at 54 I am still heavily involved with on a near daily basis. This gives me a level of conditioning that allows me to dip into MMA, but that is all, dip in and out. Regular involvement in MMA's training methods would end my martial arts training due to injury - full stop !

[Kusotare]

The reason people look down on TMA is that they are not as practical as say MMA full stop. Look at it this way- MMA have no forms, no bowing, no terminology, no lectures of why we do this etc, no line up in grade order, sit down in grade order etc etc.

A lot more of the class is for conditioning and actual useful sparring.

If someone trained in MMA for 5 years or a TMA for 5 years I struggle to see how the TMA in general could ever compete in a fight with MMA.

To me the reason I started TSD was to learn a self defence and stay fit. It def helped me keep fit but I really question if it helped with self defence. Being a black belt to the outside world means that you can fight. In reality as TMA know that is not true- it means that you learned and practised the syllabus to a decent quality and stuck at it for a few years. From my experience anyone can get a black belt in Karate eventually.

In BJJ as I understand, if you are not good enough you will never become a black belt. I think that undermines the TMA too.

A few of my friends trained in MMA for about a year and the had a go at cage fighting and doing pretty well. I know that none of my fellow TSD practitioners would ever be ready for that even after 5 years. I know people will say that TMA's are not interested in competing but in reality I think that's because they are happy making a living teaching etc but probably know deep down that they would not get very far against MMA fighters.

The "raison detre" for MMA and TMA are, in most cases , completely different.

This is a fairly lengthy documentary about Okinawan Karate, but well worth watching to understand the true purpose of training in such traditions.

K.

[njd]

It must be fully understood the the aims of TMA and MMA are very different. A cage fight is a false example. Yes a TMA practitioner has problems against a MMA practitioner. It's the old chestnut of the difference between contact training and non-contact training. One last point from my own experience. I'm 54 and fit enough and able enough to visit MMA clubs and win respect for my ability and fitness among the young MMA students. There coaches are often younger than I am, but most no longer part take in the class as such, but purely coach. Why, on both point ? Injury. MMA is a young persons game, the level of training and the injuries involved in competing etc, means it is unsustainable as a training method longer term - unlike Traditional Martial Arts. Which at 54 I am still heavily involved with on a near daily basis. This gives me a level of conditioning that allows me to dip into MMA, but that is all, dip in and out. Regular involvement in MMA's training methods would end my martial arts training due to injury - full stop !

I agree the aims are different. Interesting about the injury issue. I would still say though that from the outside a 4th dan karate chap should be able to handle an MMA fighter with say 2 years experience. From what I've seen that probably wouldn't happen. If we don;t train to learn to fight then is there a difference in TMA to say learning to dance but with all the strictness added in. I know it's extreme but I think I'm a little disillusioned with the martial arts arena at the moment. You have some senior belts who genuinely believe that they could handle themselves but I don;t think that's true some of the time. I was always told that rugby players cause no worries for MA's as they throw haymakers etc. I would argue that a lot of the rugby players would be able to endure more pain than the average Martial artist as they are used to taking the knocks.

[Kusotare]

I agree the aims are different. Interesting about the injury issue. I would still say though that from the outside a 4th dan karate chap should be able to handle an MMA fighter with say 2 years experience. From what I've seen that probably wouldn't happen. If we don;t train to learn to fight then is there a difference in TMA to say learning to dance but with all the strictness added in. I know it's extreme but I think I'm a little disillusioned with the martial arts arena at the moment. You have some senior belts who genuinely believe that they could handle themselves but I don;t think that's true some of the time. I was always told that rugby players cause no worries for MA's as they throw haymakers etc. I would argue that a lot of the rugby players would be able to endure more pain than the average Martial artist as they are used to taking the knocks.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but you seem obsessed with fighting!?

K

[njd]

knocks.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but you seem obsessed with fighting!?

K

He he it may seem like that but I'm not .

It's just that if I spend years learning a MA i would want to gain certain skills from this other than to be able to perform several forms. I would want to be able to defend myself and family if the need ever arose. I'm just worried that TSD does not fulfill that desire unless you spend 15 years studying it. Maybe I just want a quick solution, I mean why should it take that long to learn how to defend yourself?