Traditional MA; No Longer Respected!?!

[Kusotare]

My point was that not everything that is the end all, be all of Martial Arts has to be done the way it is done or was done in the Far East. There are other Martial Arts styles and cultures out there, from all over the world, both old and new, with something to offer. I don't think there is any one format that must be followed in order for something to be considered a Martial Art.

Agreed, but that wasn't what we were talking about!

k.

[Kusotare]

Well, I'm not Japanese. So you'd be right

And that's fair enough, but unfortunatley there are many of your countrymen that bring shame to the whole "we do traditional" stuff!

Frankly (imo) you can have the bits of tradition you want (the Gi's the Titles and the Belts to promote your business) but when you throw the baby out with the bath water you end up with this utter garbage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFrM3KFAIsY

K.

[tallgeese]

I think it's largely a matter of maturity and perspective on things. First up, let's look at this from inside the traditional art practice.

To address sensei8's original post as to trad arts not being respected I think a lot of good points have been noted. Chief among them that there are a lot of trad artist that have done this to themselves. Claims that are clearly out of line have always been made by people in the arts.

This is the best..

This is how you win street conflicts...

This is how you defeat x other art....

The list goes on and on. There's probably a great argument that people saying these things aren't truly "traditional" artist. But I argue that this DOES NOT MATTER. Remember, there's the other half of this as well, the outside of trad arts. Those who are either not training ma at all, or train a non-trad art. Perception is reality. Enough of the above claims will taint perception.

For those in, there' s always been a -do, -jutsu argument going on and quite frankly even well respected traditional artist can't often agree on which arts are for what. Consider how that looks to the practitioner outside of traditional arts.

If there's disagreement at that level for what you're art is about how is a new, potential white belt supposed to wrap his head around it. Compound that by the fact that lots of trad arts have separate "self defense" sections of class (call it what you will but this is the portion of class dedicated to combat application). Now, what is someone on the outside supposed to think if an instructor tells them "tonight we'll work on self defense."

What have we been doing till now? is usually the next thing to pop into a new persons head. So, to sum it up, trad arts SOMETIMES have an identity issue.

All of these things go towards questionable acceptance.

Next, let's look at what's going on OUTSIDE trad arts. You have people like Rory Miller MacYoung, and others, who have extensive backgrounds in various arts, publishing really well thought out arguments about why traditional training isn't meeting reality. This is from guys that have "been there done that" in violent situations.

The fact that someone with a background has gone into a fight, come out, and said "we have to rethink some things" is potent. I've lived this working in LE. It's made me radically review training methodologies and tactic selection due to my experience. This is a potent thing.

Now, I'll grant you, this is based on a combative outlook for martial arts and not all practitioners of trad arts will argue that this is the primary reason for involvement. But remember, there's a clear identity crisis in trad arts circles. If there weren't, we'd see no "self defense" articles or advertising.

Again, I'm not speaking out against trad arts here. I'm just pointing out what my perspective is in regard to the question sensei8 asked.

Also from the outside of trad arts, we have MMA on the scene now. This has turned into a great sportive look at combat arts. It's show us what works great under certain constraints. It's not claiming to be for this or that, it's for the purpose of dueling in an octagon. It has great cross over potential largely due to its training methodology. But the product they are turning out is pretty impressive to anyone with an unbiased view of fighting.

More important to our discussion, look at how the public will view mma in relation to trad art training. Put two people, each equal in athleticism, into a trad class and an mma class. Now, let's assume each has 0 prior experience and is able to comprehend and follow direction. Now look at the product of each after 6 months, then a year. There's a clear distinction here due to training method that the public can see. On the trad side you'll have some very hypothetical tools. On the mma side you'll have lots of live practice and contact with minimal COMPLEX tools off the table.

This sort of thing can really swing public (and martial) opinion. I'm not dissing trad arts here either. i think that 6 months to a year of hard traditional training will give an individual a lot of good tools, but you have to look at what message those differing training methodologies are showing the public.

Lastly, there's a maturity aspect as well. When I was younger and into only way way to view the arts (having only that view as background) I was adamant about what was "real" art and not. That was then, with maturity, and wisdom (I hope), it's obvious that there are a lot of reasons to do the arts. Combat is not the only one. It's the most important for me, but not even the only reason for me any more. The MAs are big, and there's lots of room for us each to explore that aspect that we like the most. And one expression of this is no less valid than the other. We just have to be honest with ourselves, and here's the kicker, others as to why we train. I do a lot of mat hours to stay ready for work. I do jiu jitsu these days because I love the art, sd is a distant second.

Lots of the disrespect that gets thrown out is probably due to a lack of maturity by artist who just haven't gotten there yet. Give them time, we come around

This doesn't mean that we'll always agree on methodology or process, but it means we'll wrap our head around that we all belong.

[sensei8]

Not to repeat myself, but what saddens me is the outwardly opinions that "traditional" MA is ineffective in todays modern world; and in that, "traditions" were for yesterday, and not for today.

However, yesterday's style's of the MA are still being taught, and in that, they are still being learnt today by an untold scores of practitioners world wide.

Not being taught and learnt with just the mindset of today only, but what was taught and learnt with yesterday in mind. Just what is still being shared with students today, is still keeping yesterday alive on and off the floor.

Change is inevitable, and in that, change must be accepted by MA practitioners day in and day out. Amending and/or adapting what was from yesterday for todays approach of the MA is critical if one is to improve ones MA betterment.

Just what is traditional MA? Is their a definition that's written in stone, that's accepted by all MAists? Is it decided by "you" and not by me/us? Is it discovered by our perception, therefore, real?

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines "Tradition" as...

1) an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought or action, 2) the handing down of beliefs and customs by word of mouth or by example without written instruction; also; a belief or custom thus handed down.

If by this definition, are we to accept it or discard it? That choice, imho, is up to the individual. However, the dictionary explanation that I've provided, is something that should be weighed as worthy of our consideration as MAists.

If my traditional ways are offensive in some how, my decision to uphold the values of yesterday, and/or my choice to practice it wholeheartedly, then let that be my sin, and if it's a sin, than let me be darned for doing so. I believe in both yesterday and today, but before I reject yesterday, I'd rather be without either in my life, especially as a MAist.

I should be free to choice either without condemnation and/or reservation; whether it be traditional ways or modern ways, they are my ways to choice because my journey, my path, my desire is to be complete in my MA totality.

I believe, I train, I teach that which is my interpretation of traditional MA. My Soke and Dai-Soke were from the yesterday world of the MA, but, as they improved/changed their own MA betterment, they never forgot where it was that they came from, and in that, they embraced both times, yesterday and today, as though they were one and in the same.

I'm judged by those who've never meet me and/or trained with me as inferior because I wear the traditional MA badge proudly. It's as though my cover is tattered in their eyes, and that tattered cover reeks of yesterday, as though yesterday was a really bad thing.

I embrace both yesterday and today because they sustain my training! My knowledge as well as my experience is the product of both era's, and what was then, is still for now, in that, what today is, is for yesterday as well.

So much so, is that what I learn from other styles of the MA is from both worlds; yesterday and today, both are in concert, and what I hear, taste, smell, see, and touch in the MA are from both times, not to be cast away, but to be appreciated as though they sustain me...and I'm sustained!!

Imho, traditions from both yesterday and today are effective. However, at times, it's the practitioner who's ineffective. Without traditions of yesterday being appreciated, how can traditions of today be appreciated.

Aren't the traditions of the founders the cornerstone of all MA??

[sensei8]

Well, I'm not Japanese. So you'd be right

And that's fair enough, but unfortunatley there are many of your countrymen that bring shame to the whole "we do traditional" stuff!

Frankly (imo) you can have the bits of tradition you want (the Gi's the Titles and the Belts to promote your business) but when you throw the baby out with the bath water you end up with this utter garbage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFrM3KFAIsY

K.

What was the name of the hosting org in your video link?? I'm flabbergasted by what I watched!!

[wagnerk]

What was the name of the hosting org in your video link??

At the start of the video, it shows "The Gathering", it appears to be organised by Soke Grandmaster Irving Soto who is the WOMA USA President. However I'm not sure if the hosting org (The Sport Karate Museum) is the same as the certifying org (which I would presume is the WOMA).

However as I have never heard of either, can't say.

[sensei8]

What was the name of the hosting org in your video link??

At the start of the video, it shows "The Gathering", it appears to be organised by Soke Grandmaster Irving Soto who is the WOMA USA President. However I'm not sure if the hosting org (The Sport Karate Museum) is the same as the certifying org (which I would presume is the WOMA).

However as I have never heard of either, can't say.

Thanks for the information. It appeared to me that this organization, if it's the one shown in said link, has some deep Texas roots. The individual that conducted said tests, handed out said certs, and spoke on camera, doesn't appear to be Irving Soto.

Still, I'm wondering. The link showed me two things about what I saw. One: Anyone in that organization can pass any said test. Two: If fees are paid, that makes it [passing said test] so. Who can respect that type of tradition? I can't!!

[Kusotare]

Lastly, there's a maturity aspect as well. When I was younger and into only way way to view the arts (having only that view as background) I was adamant about what was "real" art and not. That was then, with maturity, and wisdom (I hope), it's obvious that there are a lot of reasons to do the arts. Combat is not the only one. It's the most important for me, but not even the only reason for me any more. The MAs are big, and there's lots of room for us each to explore that aspect that we like the most. And one expression of this is no less valid than the other. We just have to be honest with ourselves, and here's the kicker, others as to why we train. I do a lot of mat hours to stay ready for work. I do jiu jitsu these days because I love the art, sd is a distant second.

Very true!

The spectrum of martial art is a broad one.

K.

[Kusotare]

What was the name of the hosting org in your video link??

At the start of the video, it shows "The Gathering", it appears to be organised by Soke Grandmaster Irving Soto who is the WOMA USA President. However I'm not sure if the hosting org (The Sport Karate Museum) is the same as the certifying org (which I would presume is the WOMA).

However as I have never heard of either, can't say.

Thanks for the information. It appeared to me that this organization, if it's the one shown in said link, has some deep Texas roots. The individual that conducted said tests, handed out said certs, and spoke on camera, doesn't appear to be Irving Soto.

Still, I'm wondering. The link showed me two things about what I saw. One: Anyone in that organization can pass any said test. Two: If fees are paid, that makes it [passing said test] so. Who can respect that type of tradition? I can't!!

It's all part of the smoke and mirrors! Isn't it?

Clearly, there were some folk there that could throw a half decent kick and punch - but that was was about the extent of it.

I may be wrong, but what I saw there was a self fueling (and by fuel I mean money) group that only exists to award phony ranks - so as to promote themselves and their business to the outside world.

It's not enough to be a 3rd, 4th or even 5th Dan sensei (in a bonefide tradition) - Gees - that's almost a beginner!!! ... no, you need to be at least 9th Dan if you are to make a dent in the commercial world.

Actually, an acquaintance of mine, and one of the highest graded Wado-kai sensei in the entire US, is a mere 7th Dan! The JKF Wadokai 8th Dan is amoungst the hardest tests in the world to pass and as a result there are very few of them - but.... what does my friend know? And, in the shopping mall of life, why would you want to train with a 7th Dan when you could train with a 9th or 10th Dan - that don't make sense!?

K.

[sensei8]

Not to derail this thread, but what the last few posts speak towards affects the core, and integrity the surrounds Traditional MA, from yesterday to today.

If the integrity is auctioned off to the highest bidder, then what the forefathers of the MA had passed off to us, it's now tainted. So much so, that the layperson loses the respect for what the MA has fought so hard for. Not just for yesterday and today, but for the future of the MA.

These types affect what little respect remains, and whatever else is felt towards the Traditons of the MA.

In the video link provided by Kusotare shows how little respect is given to the Traditions handed down by the founders; some of the greatest MAist that ever lived, imho. This video link, I believe, shows Professor Gary Lee. I think he's the voice you hear, and he's the one that's seen passing out the certs, and introducing others, and so on and so on.

Looking at Professor Gary Lee's MA Bio, it stretches from floor to ceiling. Traditions, imho, doesn't speak about the importance of oneself over the MA. But, it's seen over and over again because these individuals don't care about the integrity of the MA, nor its Traditions. Self-aggrandizement isn't a MA Tenet, and in that, it's not about the search of platitude's, but the MA is about the search for MA applied effective knowledge.

I can fit all of my platitudes on a few sentences.

Traditions are losing ground more and more each day. When I saw what I saw on the aforementioned video link, the more I watched it, the angrier I became. It's one thing to receive one platitude after another, if warranted and if they're legitimate, but to make that the soul purpose of their MA betterment is another thing.

The layperson shouldn't determine the course of the MA! But they do. They dictate what a MAist should be if that said MAist wants to do business with us, or if that said school wants them to be their student.

I suppose what irks me the most is that we're all lumped together by the layperson as one that lacks integrity. How can we be separated? By one thing, PROOF IS ON THE FLOOR!! It's not found around my waist and it's not hung upon any wall.

Traditions ARE suppose to be a good thing!