Traditional MA; No Longer Respected!?!

[sensei8]

Referring, directly or non-directly, that kata/forms are like "swimming on dry land" sure doesn't sound respectful to me. Bruce called kata "useless". So, I took his meaning to be disrespectful when I very first read it, and these many years later, I still take it in a disrespectful tone.

It's his opinion, but when millions have adopted his mindset because it was HIS opinion, it's theirs as well.

[Harkon72]

Yes, Bruce Lee...An outstanding martial artist? Yes. A God? No. He had good things to say, but there were many of his character traits that were very flawed. He reminds me of Ali.

[Boxing Padawan]

I love (and practice) the "traditional" approach.

It got more then pure combat. The way, the long years behind it, it captivate me as much as the training itself.

[bushido_man96]

Yes, Bruce Lee...An outstanding martial artist? Yes. A God? No. He had good things to say, but there were many of his character traits that were very flawed. He reminds me of Ali.

We all have character traits and flaws. Its part of what makes us human. I think its also important to understand what and why people believe what they do. In Bruce Lee's case, he wasn't saying what he did about forms just to say it. In his experience, he did not see forms as a useful training tool, and discovered what he thought were better, more productive ways of training. He just happened to have an opportunity to produce a book in which he expressed this. I still don't think its disrespectful, but just his opinion, based on his time studying Martial Arts.

At the end of the day, I really don't think the discussion will resolve much. There are a few that are willing to see both sides of the argument, and are open-minded to what both sides have to say. There are also those that are set in their ways, and will not change what they do, regardless of what data may be out to back up various claims, for or against whatever side of the fence they are on. But, this is the nature of this topic, as well.

[sensei8]

Bob = Set in his ways; traditional prisoner, I suppose!!

However, I do consider myself quite eclectic through and through. How so? Shindokan is a solid style of the MA, but it has its flaws. So, I've searched, and still search for that element that can add to the value of my MA betterment, no matter from which style of the MA that it may originate.

[xinyitaichi]

Traditional MA, for nowadays, seems to no longer be respected, for one reason or another.

Traditions based on way-back then were respected, but as we look at traditions that surround the MA in a whole, respect for the old-ways are scorned away. It seems that those that scorn said traditions, aren't respecting their core beliefs, both on and off the floor.

Traditional MAists are placed on shelves just as only another type of antique; dusty, and with not much value outside. Trying to keep said traditions alive, imho, isn't a wasteful life because without traditions, then what can one hope for in and out of any MA.

There are those who believe that traditions are ineffective, therefore, useless, without value for those who are serious minded MAists. Those who want to keep the traditions alive, are scorned as though they are still living in the past, accusatory tones that speak that those same traditionalists refuse to come to the modern age.

Just because one's a traditionalist, it doesn't mean that their, for example, Karate-do, isn't effective in today's MA world. Change is important, and it must be embraced, in that, a traditional, for example, karateka's, techniques are as effective yesterday, as they are today, and as they'll be tomorrow.

Methodologies surrounding ways of training might be old and outdated, but that method that was old, is still new today. Training in the three K's is laughed at, both inwardly as well as outwardly as methods that don't address todays attackers. This, imho, is nothing more than an assumption, and it drags me into said summation without cause. How I train today isn't much more different than yesterday. In that, my techniques are even more so effective because of my applied effective knowledge. Knowledge that's spanning over 49 years!!

If it works, then why should it be criticized and lampooned by those who don't agree. Possibly, they are laughing at themselves because they don't understand, in that, they disagree with the ways of a traditionalist MA, thus, MAist.

Traditions, whether they're agreed upon or laughed at, should be appreciated one way or another because without traditions, then there can be no future comprehensions and/or improvements in said betterment.

Your thoughts, please!!

I always think there is a self-selection process going on.

There will always be a small minority of people who are attracted to traditional martial arts for various reasons. They will be the ones to carry the torch and preserve the knowledge for generations to come.

I feel these people care more about the "art" prospect.

And the majority will just go with whatever is popular now, and they probably care more about the "martial" aspect.

And by definition, only a minority of practitioners can become "artists". Others can become effective "technicians" but not "artists".

[bushido_man96]

Bob = Set in his ways; traditional prisoner, I suppose!!

I don't think you are a "traditional prisoner." Not at all. I do think your thougths on Bruce Lee are set, though...

However, I do consider myself quite eclectic through and through. How so? Shindokan is a solid style of the MA, but it has its flaws. So, I've searched, and still search for that element that can add to the value of my MA betterment, no matter from which style of the MA that it may originate.

See, this proves that. You are willing to check out other things, seek things out, etc. This is a good thing. I think many traditional stylists fail to change because they don't want to modify their training methodologies.

[sensei8]

Being honest with oneself goes quite a long way because change is inevitable; therefore, refusing to change stifles the growth of every MAist. Having said that, I was raised in a very strict traditional MA by two of traditionalists most staunchest Sensei's I've ever had the pleasure of learning from. But, as the many years started to change some, not all, of that traditional status quo within me, I started to see that the grass can be geener on the other side of the fence concerning Shindokan. This angered them to no end, but not to the point of banning me. They saw my opinions as my own and part of my MA journey. Was I wrong in their eyes? Not in the least because I'm my own MAist, and before that, I'm my own person. I suppose because of how I value Shindokan as my core MA, they learned to accept my ways and the like.

Now, as far as Bruce is concerned, Bruce Lee, imho, was quite solid as a MAist and so on, I just don't agree with his kata opinions; never have, never will!!

[SteyrAUG]

Traditional MA, for nowadays, seems to no longer be respected, for one reason or another.

Your thoughts, please!!

Honestly...jump for joy.

Those who flock to the latest MMA, Krav Maga, Ninjutsu, JKD or whatever is currently on the cover of Black Belt schools that are suddenly on every corner with instructors of dubious credentials were likely never going to benefit your dojo in the first place.

I only wish they'd stop calling what they do "martial arts" entirely and come up with a more suitable name like "cage fighting", "TKD done in a ninja suit", "Making it up as we go along concepts" or in the case of what is passed off as traditional martial arts "performance nonsense done in absurdly low stances."

I was lucky enough to have several knowledgeable instructors who took the time to show me correct and authentic martial arts even if it meant I never had a cool looking gi with lighting bolts and tigers on it and a camouflage rank belt with 5 different pieces of colored electrical tape on it.

Authentic martial arts are now exactly where they belong. Somewhat underground, and practiced by the fortunate few who recognize the significance of what they are learning and willing to devote the time and energy to their development.

The problem comes from trying to teach them commercially. As one of my sensei correctly observed "you will pay for your training three ways: financially, physically and mentally...and the money will always be the easiest part." The problem is most people who seek martial arts instruction have no idea what that actually is and when they find out it is little more than hard work and drilling of basics over and over that isn't nearly as cool as what the guys on the next corner are selling.

Those guys have music playing and are doing backflips and can kick a rubber gun out of your hand. And if that is what a student wishes to pay for, they are in exactly the correct school.

Martial arts cannot be learned by anyone in 10 simple lessons. This is an unfortunate reality for anyone trying to operate a commercial school and make a living. But the fact of the matter is a very small percentage of the population are suitable candidates to become actual martial artists and it can be hard for new students to discern a genuine dojo from a "school" and the latter greatly outnumbers the former.

I wish we could return to the days of Karate "clubs" where a space is rented and the cost of the "hall" is divided by the number of students participating and the instructor simply donates his time a couple nights a week. The instructor benefits by having a training hall that costs him nothing more than a few nights of instruction and the students have a place to gather and practice 5-7 night a week and 12-15 students can usually support the training hall easily, even if they did sometimes have to shut down for the summer because half of the student body went on vacation.

In that environment there is usually nothing else going on but serious training in very legitimate martial arts but the instructor still needed a day job. I came in on the fading out of "clubs" in the late 70s but I was fortunate enough to enjoy the experience a few times.

I would later spend years of my life trying to interject some level of legitimacy and authenticity into some of the "schools" where I worked as an instructor and it was entirely frustrating to me. I know simply teach private students on my own time for no money. They pay me with a capacity to learn what I am teaching and genuine dedication.

We are all content and feel fortunate that we are practicing authentic martial arts. What they guys at the local Velocity Martial Arts School think of us or what we do is not really our concern.

[SteyrAUG]

Now, as far as Bruce is concerned, Bruce Lee, imho, was quite solid as a MAist and so on, I just don't agree with his kata opinions; never have, never will!!

Lee was actually quite correct about kata and there was no reason for "him" to practice forms. Lee didn't even practice a style but was attempting to be a pure martial artist.

We need to remember kata exist for these reasons:

1. It allowed for easy transmission of the core concepts of a style organized into a logical pattern that can be passed on from teacher to student so a "technique" is never lost or forgotten.

2. In China and Okinawa at important times in the history of development the practice of martial arts was either illegal or repressed. Kata was a way to transmit these core values in an efficient way rather than learning 108 different self defense techniques.

3. Kata allowed a student to practice the specialized, and often secret or hidden, methods of his particular style without divulging the nature of those techniques. Forms were even modified at times to deliberately obscure the bunkai applications of the movements.

Lee "could" have created kata. He could have taken the twelve things he felt most important to his concept system and organized them into a logical pattern that could be learned by students easily. This way every time the students had time to train they could do 3-4 "forms" that covered the most important movements of their system.

But there was no need. Martial arts were no longer illegal, repressed or designed to conceal the true nature of techniques. It was simply more efficient for Lee to eliminate the unnecessary creation of patterns and simply focus on techniques and training.

But Lee's modern concept system was not the same thing as "koryu" martial arts. They are different things done for different reasons, even if they are sometimes done by the same person. Ironically, Lee was actually more of a traditionalist than most understand, without his sound basic foundations in traditional martial arts, he would have had nothing to simply and streamline.

Or as one of my teachers told me when I asked which style was best..."There is usually more than one path to the top of a mountain and one is no more correct than the other...it simply depends on which view you prefer on your climb."