Traditional MA; No Longer Respected!?!

[bushido_man96]

So we have these sentiments in regards to how others feel they don’t respect “traditional” arts,

Traditions based on way-back then were respected, but as we look at traditions that surround the MA in a whole, respect for the old-ways are scorned away. It seems that those that scorn said traditions, aren't respecting their core beliefs, both on and off the floor.

Traditional MAists are placed on shelves just as only another type of antique; dusty, and with not much value outside. Trying to keep said traditions alive, imho, isn't a wasteful life because without traditions, then what can one hope for in and out of any MA.

I'm judged by those who've never meet me and/or trained with me as inferior because I wear the traditional MA badge proudly. It's as though my cover is tattered in their eyes, and that tattered cover reeks of yesterday, as though yesterday was a really bad thing.

And then we see these sentiments:

All martial traditions have a history of belief - rightly or wrongly!

Anything outside of that is sport!

Is this not just as disrespectful to Martial Arts not of the eastern traditions? I feel it is, and it sells short the legitimacy of these styles trained in a sporting and competition venue.

We basically have people setting on two sides of the fence, pointing at each other instead of talking to each other. It didn't take long in this thread to "blame MMA" for how "traditional" arts are now viewed. In my opinion, it isn't the fault of MMA. Like tallgeese pointed out, there are those out there who have evaluated what they spent a lot of years doing, and then changed things to help achieve their needs. It does speak to how one side can help the other side, and vise versa.

[bushido_man96]

Well, this is because the majority of today's society want everything to be handed to them in black and white. Most places teach these horrible drills (Punch set 1, block set 1..ect.ect.) and people do it, because they think that's how it will be applied in a fight scenario. Where as in Traditional Martial Arts, it is a progress of understanding. And within that progression something grows inside the mind of the practitioner. "The level of understanding, and application". All karate will become your own personal karate, regardless of style, down the road, the way you use and see karate will be different than the person next to you. Even if you start training on the same day. People want to go and learn (Gun disarm 2..) and all that jazz, but a real traditional martial artist can practice a kata and see within the form, more gun disarms than you would ever need to know. But to do this, takes much effort. I wish more people could understand the reward of traditional martial arts.

Well said!!! I agree. There is no quick fix.

My concern is this: what good is the "reward" of these gun disarms I can finally realize 10 years of training from now if a gun is drawn on me tomorrow? Why can't we learn the gun defense, and practice it, without the form? The point is, we can.

I need to teach weapon retention to my fellow officers, and I need to be able to do it in a way that is easy to understand, and allows my fellow officers to be able to utilize the techniques at a highly successful rate early on. Is this bad? No, its a good thing, even for traditional stylists.

I'm also not really sure of the belief that "society wants everything handed to them." I've always been around people with strong work ethics that emphasize that hard work pays off. I don't think a lot of people view MMA as the "quick fix." It takes a lot of hard work to get into a position where one can compete.

Where as in Traditional Martial Arts, it is a progress of understanding. And within that progression something grows inside the mind of the practitioner. "The level of understanding, and application".

This isn't just in traditional styles. I see this in Wrestling already, and I've just started scratching the surface of working with my boys on it. To assume that this kind of understanding is only achieved in the "traditional" arts is a disservice to all styles.

[sensei8]

So we have these sentiments in regards to how others feel they don’t respect “traditional” arts,

Traditions based on way-back then were respected, but as we look at traditions that surround the MA in a whole, respect for the old-ways are scorned away. It seems that those that scorn said traditions, aren't respecting their core beliefs, both on and off the floor.

Traditional MAists are placed on shelves just as only another type of antique; dusty, and with not much value outside. Trying to keep said traditions alive, imho, isn't a wasteful life because without traditions, then what can one hope for in and out of any MA.

I'm judged by those who've never meet me and/or trained with me as inferior because I wear the traditional MA badge proudly. It's as though my cover is tattered in their eyes, and that tattered cover reeks of yesterday, as though yesterday was a really bad thing.

And then we see these sentiments:

All martial traditions have a history of belief - rightly or wrongly!

Anything outside of that is sport!

Is this not just as disrespectful to Martial Arts not of the eastern traditions? I feel it is, and it sells short the legitimacy of these styles trained in a sporting and competition venue.

We basically have people setting on two sides of the fence, pointing at each other instead of talking to each other. It didn't take long in this thread to "blame MMA" for how "traditional" arts are now viewed. In my opinion, it isn't the fault of MMA. Like tallgeese pointed out, there are those out there who have evaluated what they spent a lot of years doing, and then changed things to help achieve their needs. It does speak to how one side can help the other side, and vise versa.

As I've said...I don't blame MMA and/or any other style of the MA. It's the practitioner that must be held accountable whenever their verbal/written attacks are directed to me, and they have been directed to me, all because I'm a traditionalist as a MAists. That's who I point my finger at.

While I'm a traditionalist in my MA, I'm also eclectic enough to search outside of the Shindokan circle. That's because I know that Shindokan isn't a complete style of the MA, and in that, neither is ANY style of the MA, imho.

My OP speaks about what I've endured from any and all MAists that have no respect for the "traditional" badge that I wear proudly. I've been attacked vehemently in both the written and spoken words because I believe in the traditional values of the MA that I study. However, it's more of the "Traditional Karate" that's lampooned and lambasted, and because I say that I'm a follower of traditional karate-do, I'm not worthy to be spit upon by those who find fault in traditional karate-do.

[Kusotare]

All martial traditions have a history of belief - rightly or wrongly!

Anything outside of that is sport!

Is this not just as disrespectful to Martial Arts not of the eastern traditions? I feel it is' date=' and it sells short the legitimacy of these styles trained in a sporting and competition venue.

[/quote']

You're being too sensitive bushido_man

It's not my intension to disrespect martial arts NOT of eastern origin - or those born out of the sporting arena - far from it!

My point was simply that the origins of martial traditions of yesteryear (and as a result their descendants today) were, more often than not, fuelled by religious or imperial belief!

Whether you were a sengoku period samurai or a medieval knight on a crusade - your belief in your god(s) / faith (and thus your divine right to win) was all powerful.

K.

[Hawkmoon]

I think you can blame that on MMA. Despite the fact that many many many MMA experts spent years in a traditional dojo, people only see what is going on in the ring. So they think they must go to an MMA gym to get skilled in actual combat.

They feel things like kata are antiquated and useless.

This statement bothers me due to the fact that I hear it alot in the TMA as well as in the boxing circle almost all the time.

Traditional martial art has itself to blame to be honest! (as does boxing)

Its not mma's fault that tma circles began to manufacture rainbow color belt

Its not mma's fault that every 8 year old and their grandmother is a blackbelt

Its not mma's fault that we have a mcdojo culture that was a result of many instructors in the tma community abusing their position for profit

These bad behaviours that occured in the tma world surfaced before the rise of the mma culture. Blaming mma is alot like the rap genre blaming rock and roll for its lack of popularity.

Also on a last note, to the poster who was insulted by a kickboxer, I have been involved with the boxing/tma world and I will say that every martial arts/combat culture has its bad apples as well as its unsung heros.

{deep breath}

ka blam..."Gee wiz Batman we foiled the Joker again!"

"Yes we did Robin, but you have to remember and ....."

I'm gonna be ill!

The above .....yes yes yes yes yes and yes!

I've had a rant before on the following but ...the above and what films and TV have portrayed ...seriously !

bad apples, money, impatience, mcdojo , bad teaching, mis-understood young or old students....MMA, kickboxers, boxer, judo, Wrestling, karate, Football, baseball, Tennis etc the list is endless, all suffer these, its sadly the way of things.

TMA its a mind set thing.

As TMA students do what we do for fun, for the love of the art and we do it for free, we show respect to each other as well as everyone else is what marks us out as different.....a better different!

I consider this as 'our' way of combating the bad apples, the mcdojo, the etc etc....

Its a positive not a negative!

Ridicule that's bullying ....... sorry I left the school yard at school, I grew up.

I understand that bullying is for the weak minded, I don't dislike you because you don't understand I pity you because you don't understand this simply thing.

Its free costs nothing and works without fail in a place I call the rest of the world!

Its really really not hard to be polite, to me its this loss of respect that has driver the mcdojo culture as much as all the other things listed above has.

MA is its own downfall, TV etc simply added more weight, speed to that demise.

..and I've deleted the rest of this post as I break no smash various forum rules.

(no more edits I promise)

[bushido_man96]

All martial traditions have a history of belief - rightly or wrongly!

Anything outside of that is sport!

Is this not just as disrespectful to Martial Arts not of the eastern traditions? I feel it is' date=' and it sells short the legitimacy of these styles trained in a sporting and competition venue.

[/quote']

You're being too sensitive bushido_man

It's not my intension to disrespect martial arts NOT of eastern origin - or those born out of the sporting arena - far from it!

My point was simply that the origins of martial traditions of yesteryear (and as a result their descendants today) were, more often than not, fuelled by religious or imperial belief!

Whether you were a sengoku period samurai or a medieval knight on a crusade - your belief in your god(s) / faith (and thus your divine right to win) was all powerful.

K.

I'm not being too sensitive. I'm just pointing out in regards to Bob's opening post that traditional stylists aren't the only stylists that get disrespected by other stylists. I do think your point about faith in fighting styles is a valid one.

[vantheman]

Hello all,

After thinking things over a bit, I have a few opinions/ideas I would like to share.

I'll start off with MMA. Simply put, the rise of the MMA has had impact on the view of martial arts by the mainstream western world. Seeing that sporting events are very popular in the Western world, it is not surprising that MMA has been so successful. As a result, the martial arts commonly used in MMA saw a rise in popularity. However, many people forget that many of these martial arts ARE traditional. Things like boxing and wrestling predate ancient Greek civilizations. What bothers me is the misconceived notion that because boxing and wrestling are sports, not "traditional" arts, they are only suited for sport situations and will not work in real world self defense. Although this is a separate issue, it has already made its way into this discussion and I figured I should address it anyways. The problem with this logic is that the arts used in MMA are used because they work and are effective methods of combat. Yes, you CAN learn how to fight and defeat attackers very well without having to follow tradition, go to Japan, or perform kata (or go through some overly philosophical fighting theory discussions, for that matter). Therefore, experience in any ONE of the Mixed Martial arts styles accompanied with some very basic self defense or cross training can result in someone with comparable or better physical and combative ability than many traditional martial artists (especially when you take into account the many illegitimate McDojos). (Please note that this does not apply the psychological aspects of self defense, that come mainly from experience, i.e. a police officer in a dangerous locale). Also, please remember I do study and respect traditional martial arts. ---Rant end--- In short, what I am trying to say is that the MMA has created a different image in people's minds for the martial artist. Instead of the man in the gi doing katas in a dojo, they see a man in fight shorts fighting another man in a ring. The direct effect is not necessarily disrespect to traditional MAs, but more of a shift of respect to MMAists. Now, there are MMAists that argue against traditional martial artists, which IS disrespectful, and which I do NOT necessarily agree with, but that has already been debated extensively on this site.

The next cause of decline in respect "traditional" martial arts is the emergence of many modern "combative" martial arts. NOTE: By "combative" I refer to the martial arts styles based primarily off of military combative skills. To put things simply, the military needs to learn martial arts-style combat quickly and efficiently. As a result, the less combative aspects of martial arts (katas, discipline, breathing exercises, low stance work, internal arts, rigid blocks) are either cut out, or already covered in other parts of military training (marching, ceremonial stuff, ect.). When personal/civilian adaptations of these martial arts, such as Krav Maga, gain popularity, they end up being pure self defense. There is nothing inherently wrong with them aside from the fact that the only long term option with these arts is to become an instructor. Once again, some of these practitioners criticize traditional MAs as inefficient, which does cause a level of disrespect, although that is another back and forth debate much like the sport-art one. I believe that the bigger selling point for these arts is the association with the army, which does not really directly effect traditional MAs. It just creates the image in people's heads of fighting like a secret agent, as opposed to a ninja/samurai/shaolin monk.

Lastly is the unfortunate rise of the over-commercialization of the martial arts. This is fairly straightforward: when one's desire to make money exceeds the desire to teach people martial arts to the point where training is significantly compromised (aka, a McDojo), the school, the martial arts, and in some cases, traditional martial arts as s whole, decline in status.

To conclude, the issues that traditional martial arts have had to deal with as far as conflicts in respect go are not necessarily bad. Although MMA practitioners sometimes put down Traditional MAs, it is not a one way battle, as there are plenty Traditional MAists doing the same to sport based arts. (the silver lining? it shows dedication to one's art ). The Traditional MAists are also to blame in part too; you don't see a lot of McMMA gyms,..

Regardless, the martial arts are always evolving, and they MUST in order to stay relevant! Tradition is important but 'traditional' is relative.

[bushido_man96]

Great post, Van. Excellent points!

I'd like to add to what you've said in regards to the MMA styles and training. By and large, I think that the consumers of the world are fairly well informed, and with MMA being a popular draw as a professional sport, I feel fairly convinced that most of the consumers watching MMA aren't convinced that it is some sort of "easy quick fix" in learn Martial Arts.

Its a lot like watching professional football on TV. I'm a big NFL fan, and watch the Chief religiously. I enjoy it, and get crazy over it at times. But, I'm also well enough informed that I couldn't walk out onto that field and even think I could play. In the same vein, I don't think most of the population watching MMA events thinks they can walk out of the arena, and into a gym, and start competing. It just doesn't work that way. Viewers are aware of the hard work and time spent training that is put into becoming a professinal athlete, whether as a fighter, a football player, baseball, etc. With that said, I don't think MMA is looked at as the "quick fix" to MA training.

[alexis101]

There will be no modern martial arts without the traditional martial arts.

It's the traditional one that shapes martial arts as what we know it today.

It's fine to adapt something new in martial arts and have fun,

but let's still value and respect what is in the past.

[bushido_man96]

There will be no modern martial arts without the traditional martial arts.

How so? Fighting has been around a long, long time, and not just in the East.

It's the traditional one that shapes martial arts as what we know it today.

This is not the case. Traditional styles shape traditional styles, not all styles. Boxing and Wrestling were not shaped by any traditional styles.