Traditional MA; No Longer Respected!?!

[njd]

I'm 54 and fit enough and able enough to visit MMA clubs and win respect for my ability and fitness among the young MMA students. There coaches are often younger than I am, but most no longer part take in the class as such, but purely coach. Why, on both point ? Injury. MMA is a young persons game, the level of training and the injuries involved in competing etc, means it is unsustainable as a training method longer term - unlike Traditional Martial Arts. Which at 54 I am still heavily involved with on a near daily basis. This gives me a level of conditioning that allows me to dip into MMA, but that is all, dip in and out. Regular involvement in MMA's training methods would end my martial arts training due to injury - full stop !

If you don't mind me asking- what style and grade are you? Are you a full time instructor?

[Kusotare]

It's just that if I spend years learning a MA i would want to gain certain skills from this other than to be able to perform several forms. I would want to be able to defend myself and family if the need ever arose. I'm just worried that TSD does not fulfill that desire unless you spend 15 years studying it. Maybe I just want a quick solution, I mean why should it take that long to learn how to defend yourself?

This has been discussed here many times, but TMA and self defence aren't always mutual bed-partners.

Most gendai martial arts are designed to reflect the qualities of Budo rather than self protection.

These are not dirty words! - It's the truth.

The best way to learn self defence is go to self defence classes.

IMO, as long as instructors are upfront and honest about this the rewards from learning a quality tradition far outstrip the need to be able to fight.

The problem I think you are alluding to is that most TMA instructors out there are falsely selling what they do (probably because they are deluded themselves), and I agree with you - that's poor!

K.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Kusotare

[njd]

It's just that if I spend years learning a MA i would want to gain certain skills from this other than to be able to perform several forms. I would want to be able to defend myself and family if the need ever arose. I'm just worried that TSD does not fulfill that desire unless you spend 15 years studying it. Maybe I just want a quick solution, I mean why should it take that long to learn how to defend yourself?

This has been discussed here many times, but TMA and self defence aren't always mutual bed-partners.

Most gendai martial arts are designed to reflect the qualities of Budo rather than self protection.

These are not dirty words! - It's the truth.

The best way to learn self defence is go to self defence classes.

IMO, as long as instructors are upfornt and honest about this then, then the rewards from learning a quality tradition far outstrip the need to be able to fight.

The problem I think you are aluding to is that most TMA instructors out there are falsely selling what they do (probably because they are deluded themselves), and I agree with you - that's poor!

K.

I think that you've hit the nail on the head. TMA seem to promote the fact that they are self defence when in fact they are not. It would seem silly to a member of public for a black belt to be attending self defence classes as they would expect them to already know this. Unless you are maybe saying Krav Maga?

[andym]

The ultimate aim of the art of Karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the characters of its participants

This is the ultimate aim.....what is your primary aim ?

As my Sensei often says. "Karate is about fighting, but it's much more than that !"

In answer to njd's question. I'm a student of Goju Ryu Karate-Do, studying with Sensei Tony Christian in Wigan Lancashire , GB. I've been with him for 35 years out of the 40 I've been training. I'm currently graded as a 6th dan. And I don't have a Dojo or teach , apart from helping friends, covering holidays etc.

[andym]

I would still say though that from the outside a 4th dan karate chap should be able to handle an MMA fighter with say 2 years experience. From what I've seen that probably wouldn't happen.

Hi again, here's something from my very sporadic blog that is very relevant to this subject.

http://andyskarateblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012_02_01_archive.html

Tuesday, 7 February 2012

MMA TROUBLE.

Could have been in trouble at work last month. For the first time in eighteen years, outside of the martial arts, I’ve had to hit some one ! Until this January 2012, I’d not needed to hit anyone outside of training. I’d always managed to sort things out by other means.

At work I’m very quiet , most know I’m a Black Belt of some kind, but I don’t talk about it unless asked and don’t show off. Too a large extent, hardly any one at work knows I’ve had nearly ten articles published in martial arts magazines over the years. A couple of years ago one of the guys there started M.M.A. training, he’s in his twenties. Recently he’s been tormenting me at work to wrestle with him. I avoided this until December (2011) , when he grabs me ! I don’t want to play and don’t resist, so end up on the floor. He thinks he’s God’s gift. I point out I didn’t join in, resist or try to stop him, no he’s not having that. I point out , how open to counter strikes, he was. No. he’s God gift.

Anyway, it happens again, he comes tormenting me, again. He wont be told, again. I avoid him, but it’s know good, he wont be dissuaded. He grabs me, again. This time it’s get off or else ! He wont let go, so….

Or else, a light slap to the groin. A little ‘bell ringer’, just to show he’s the looser, and really don't want to play. At this he looses his temper ! Pulls me around and tries to drag me face down on the floor and apply a choke - ala Gracie. I stop this - I strike! Right palm heel to left floating ribs, check mate. He’s on the floor now, gasping for breath. Lucky, NO broken ribs or I might have been in trouble ! That’s the way things go these days.

So for the first time since 1994, I’ve had to strike someone. The first time in 18 years I’ve not been able to stop a potential combat situation, becoming combat ! The MMA guy later complains, what did I hit him for, he was only messing about ? Telling.

This raises some interesting points :

What happened wasn’t up to me - he wouldn’t be talked out of it.

That you can ‘play’ at wrestling and it still works. If you ‘play’ at striking, it will not work !

Has this lead to the currant view that grappling / wrestling will always win ?

Again the currant view is. ’Fights will always go to the floor’. He tried and failed to get me down.

In MMA , they are punched in training as the wrestle, they are familiar with it. But, this is with mitts on ! Has this lead to a under appreciation of striking ?

[sensei8]

Boiling it down to bare understanding...

The act of disrespect isn't the fault of the style, but it's the disrespectful acts of practitioners. A style is just a thing, but a person isn't just a thing.

I don't blame MMA or BJJ or Shotokan or TKD or any other style of the MA. I hold the practitioners accountable for what they say and/or don't say. A style's never torn me down, but an individual has, and that act is an act of intent.

The act of disrespect is felt by said practitioner who has perceived it to be so, and in that, the act of disrespect is therefore, real to that person.

Either the style and/or the practitioner are dealt the disrespect. If the style is spoken in a negative tone, the practitioner of said style takes offense. And of course, if the practitioner him/herself is spoken in a negative tone, well, that person feels the attack personally.

Again, a style has NEVER hurt me, nor has it ever offended me!! To commit that, a person has to have voluntarily implemented their disrespect towards me.

Are we, or are we not, as MAists, and even more so, as human beings, complete in our MA totality??

[Himokiri Karate]

To: Andy

Mma can cost up to 250 dollars a month which attracts the typical rich "hollywood" type personality who are in to partying,fast women,drugs and liquer.

Basicly the "Bling Bling" crowd who will have one waterd down mma fight, quite the sport/training and then go around telling ppl they are fighters for the rest of their lives. Again these ppl are looking for a "Fast" solution to their insecurity problems.

It can be frustraing because real mma folks are pretty cool to be honest and they too are not crazy about the person that was trying to wrestle you since it reflects poorly on their school seeing a student of theirs conduct themselves like that.

[Nodan]

Well, this is because the majority of today's society want everything to be handed to them in black and white. Most places teach these horrible drills (Punch set 1, block set 1..ect.ect.) and people do it, because they think that's how it will be applied in a fight scenario. Where as in Traditional Martial Arts, it is a progress of understanding. And within that progression something grows inside the mind of the practitioner. "The level of understanding, and application". All karate will become your own personal karate, regardless of style, down the road, the way you use and see karate will be different than the person next to you. Even if you start training on the same day. People want to go and learn (Gun disarm 2..) and all that jazz, but a real traditional martial artist can practice a kata and see within the form, more gun disarms than you would ever need to know. But to do this, takes much effort. I wish more people could understand the reward of traditional martial arts.

[quinteros1963]

Well, this is because the majority of today's society want everything to be handed to them in black and white. Most places teach these horrible drills (Punch set 1, block set 1..ect.ect.) and people do it, because they think that's how it will be applied in a fight scenario. Where as in Traditional Martial Arts, it is a progress of understanding. And within that progression something grows inside the mind of the practitioner. "The level of understanding, and application". All karate will become your own personal karate, regardless of style, down the road, the way you use and see karate will be different than the person next to you. Even if you start training on the same day. People want to go and learn (Gun disarm 2..) and all that jazz, but a real traditional martial artist can practice a kata and see within the form, more gun disarms than you would ever need to know. But to do this, takes much effort. I wish more people could understand the reward of traditional martial arts.

Well said!!! I agree. There is no quick fix.

[njd]

In answer to njd's question. I'm a student of Goju Ryu Karate-Do, studying with Sensei Tony Christian in Wigan Lancashire , GB. I've been with him for 35 years out of the 40 I've been training. I'm currently graded as a 6th dan. And I don't have a Dojo or teach , apart from helping friends, covering holidays etc.

Wow that's a very senior grade!

I see the point that you can wrestle all day long but can't really strike full force.