Traditional MA; No Longer Respected!?!

[Himokiri Karate]

I think you can blame that on MMA. Despite the fact that many many many MMA experts spent years in a traditional dojo, people only see what is going on in the ring. So they think they must go to an MMA gym to get skilled in actual combat.

They feel things like kata are antiquated and useless.

This statement bothers me due to the fact that I hear it alot in the TMA as well as in the boxing circle almost all the time.

Traditional martial art has itself to blame to be honest! (as does boxing)

Its not mma's fault that tma circles began to manufacture rainbow color belt

Its not mma's fault that every 8 year old and their grandmother is a blackbelt

Its not mma's fault that we have a mcdojo culture that was a result of many instructors in the tma community abusing their position for profit

These bad behaviours that occured in the tma world surfaced before the rise of the mma culture. Blaming mma is alot like the rap genre blaming rock and roll for its lack of popularity.

Also on a last note, to the poster who was insulted by a kickboxer, I have been involved with the boxing/tma world and I will say that every martial arts/combat culture has its bad apples as well as its unsung heros.

I agree with all of your points.

To be more exact about my statement: The introduction of MMA into society allowed people to see there was something better out there. It exposed the multitude of schools that falsely claim to teach self defense when all they really were was a glorified daycare.

That's what I mean when I say, "It's MMAs fault." So all the things you mentioned, and some, are included in my statement. It opened people's eyes to being more skeptical of what their doing.

Oh I hear what your saying and forsure mma was the alternate choice for those who are looking for a different martial art culture since everyone was fed up with the martial business that was the mcdojo.

To be honest with you, few years back I use to hear boxing ppl complain non-stop about mma and how its not "Real" fighting. I would cringe by their statement it since I have trained in some judo and judo ain't no joke.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[CredoTe]

I think you can blame that on MMA. Despite the fact that many many many MMA experts spent years in a traditional dojo, people only see what is going on in the ring. So they think they must go to an MMA gym to get skilled in actual combat.

They feel things like kata are antiquated and useless.

This statement bothers me due to the fact that I hear it alot in the TMA as well as in the boxing circle almost all the time.

Traditional martial art has itself to blame to be honest! (as does boxing)

Its not mma's fault that tma circles began to manufacture rainbow color belt

Its not mma's fault that every 8 year old and their grandmother is a blackbelt

Its not mma's fault that we have a mcdojo culture that was a result of many instructors in the tma community abusing their position for profit

These bad behaviours that occured in the tma world surfaced before the rise of the mma culture. Blaming mma is alot like the rap genre blaming rock and roll for its lack of popularity.

Also on a last note, to the poster who was insulted by a kickboxer, I have been involved with the boxing/tma world and I will say that every martial arts/combat culture has its bad apples as well as its unsung heros.

I agree with all of your points.

To be more exact about my statement: The introduction of MMA into society allowed people to see there was something better out there. It exposed the multitude of schools that falsely claim to teach self defense when all they really were was a glorified daycare.

That's what I mean when I say, "It's MMAs fault." So all the things you mentioned, and some, are included in my statement. It opened people's eyes to being more skeptical of what their doing.

Absolutely Great posts both of you! The issues within the traditional MA are mainly internal. Those of us within the traditional MA have the power and control to fix/improve things. We cannot control what happens in MMA, so we need to focus on ourselves and that which we can control, IMHO.

[sensei8]

I think you can blame that on MMA. Despite the fact that many many many MMA experts spent years in a traditional dojo, people only see what is going on in the ring. So they think they must go to an MMA gym to get skilled in actual combat.

They feel things like kata are antiquated and useless.

This statement bothers me due to the fact that I hear it alot in the TMA as well as in the boxing circle almost all the time.

Traditional martial art has itself to blame to be honest! (as does boxing)

Its not mma's fault that tma circles began to manufacture rainbow color belt

Its not mma's fault that every 8 year old and their grandmother is a blackbelt

Its not mma's fault that we have a mcdojo culture that was a result of many instructors in the tma community abusing their position for profit

These bad behaviours that occured in the tma world surfaced before the rise of the mma culture. Blaming mma is alot like the rap genre blaming rock and roll for its lack of popularity.

Also on a last note, to the poster who was insulted by a kickboxer, I have been involved with the boxing/tma world and I will say that every martial arts/combat culture has its bad apples as well as its unsung heros.

I agree with all of your points.

To be more exact about my statement: The introduction of MMA into society allowed people to see there was something better out there. It exposed the multitude of schools that falsely claim to teach self defense when all they really were was a glorified daycare.

That's what I mean when I say, "It's MMAs fault." So all the things you mentioned, and some, are included in my statement. It opened people's eyes to being more skeptical of what their doing.

Absolutely Great posts both of you! The issues within the traditional MA are mainly internal. Those of us within the traditional MA have the power and control to fix/improve things. We cannot control what happens in MMA, so we need to focus on ourselves and that which we can control, IMHO.

To the bold type above...Solid!!

[guird]

assuming a martial arts technique ,concept, or training method is ineffective for the purpose of self defense or other combat simple because it is traditional is a mistake.

assuming that a martial arts technique, concept, or training method system is effective simply because it is traditional however, is also a mistake.

A lot of the criticisms of traditional martial arts are valid, whenever i look at the situation I can't deny this.

If you value tradition, isn't tradition for its own sake enough? why do we have to assert that it is also necessarily effective for combat or self defense?

[sensei8]

Like I've said, it's not the technique that's ineffective, but, imho, it's the practitioner that's ineffective in its execution.

Imho!!

[bushido_man96]

In Japanese traditions "Keiko Shokon" means...

"Reflecting deeply on the past - illuminates the future"

I quite like that, and, if you're not into that, then perhaps practicing a traditional MA isn't for you.

K.

I agree. It just isn't for everyone.

And I think there is something we need to clear up a bit when we use the word "traditional." For the most part, we are using "traditional" to describe styles with roots in the Far East, many of which have some sort of philosophical or spiritual base along with them.

But not all styles orginate from there. Boxing has a rather rich history, from the Hellenic style of Boxing from the ancient Olympiads, along with Wrestling and Pankration. Western Swordsmanship has just as rich and deep a history as that of the Samurai from Japan. Fencing has a nice history as well, and the list goes on.

Not every system uses a training method like that of these "traditional" Far Eastern arts that many of us have been exposed to, and have a bias towards.

Its kind of like the thread Alex put up a time back, speaking about different ways of learning. Not everyone will pick things up the same way, and different approaches work better for different people. For example, some people see the idea of practicing a jab on a heavy bag, focus mitts, or with a sparring partner as more productive than walking up and down a floor in front stances doing a lunge punch, focusing on stance transition and pulling the other hand back to the hip or ribs. Not that either is right or wrong; they are just different. Then we end up with discussions by traditionalists saying a Boxer's technique isn't very good, because of their method, and a Boxer saying a "traditionalists" punch isn't practical, because they walk and punch the air all the time. This banter just proves how much one doesn't realize about the other.

So in the end, its probably ignorance on each side that plays the major role in disagreements on subjects like this one.

[Kusotare]

And I think there is something we need to clear up a bit when we use the word "traditional." For the most part, we are using "traditional" to describe styles with roots in the Far East, many of which have some sort of philosophical or spiritual base along with them.

But not all styles orginate from there. Boxing has a rather rich history, from the Hellenic style of Boxing from the ancient Olympiads, along with Wrestling and Pankration. Western Swordsmanship has just as rich and deep a history as that of the Samurai from Japan. Fencing has a nice history as well, and the list goes on.

So, I guess none of those systems / and those that practiced them had a spiritual / philosophical engine?

Nonsense!

All martial traditions have a history of belief - rightly or wrongly!

Anything outside of that is sport!

K.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Kusotare

[bushido_man96]

Not necessarily. I think the idea of chivalric types of codes are largely based on the beliefs of people that pass the styles down, and not on the style itself. So in the end, its more a part of the person that perpetuated the system, rather than the system itself. The system ends up becoming the vehicle for trasmitting a person's beliefs. Get enough people to follow along, and then it seems to become more of a part of the style. Then, when people have some differences, the splits happen.

All martial traditions have a history of belief - rightly or wrongly!

Anything outside of that is sport!

I think this is another of the biases that Eastern style practitioners tend to pull out of their experience and then require to be applied to any style that considers themselves a Martial Art, or else deem it "not so." All styles have a history. Its impossible not to. Time implies history. How old, or how new, is just a factor of when on the timeline it happens.

Nor do I believe that because a style may be a sport style, like Boxing is today, or Wrestling, or MMA, that it isn't a Martial Art. They still are. They just have a different focus.

[Kusotare]

I'm not talking about chivalry, I'm taking about deities...

Bushidoman, if you don't mind me saying - for a moderator on board called "Karate Forums" you seem very reluctant to embrace Japanese traditions...

I could have that wrong though.

Eitherway, I teach guys traditional karate that are knights at the Tower of London - and it don't get much more "Medieval" than that - and they know what I mean!

K.

[bushido_man96]

Bushidoman, if you don't mind me saying - for a moderator on board called "Karate Forums" you seem very reluctant to embrace Japanese traditions...

I could have that wrong though.

K.

Well, I'm not Japanese. So you'd be right.

With that said, I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. My point was that not everything that is the end all, be all of Martial Arts has to be done the way it is done or was done in the Far East. There are other Martial Arts styles and cultures out there, from all over the world, both old and new, with something to offer. I don't think there is any one format that must be followed in order for something to be considered a Martial Art.