The Kicking Foot Orientation!!

[bushido_man96]

Its interesting to me that you say they are "implied." How so? Is it by the use of chamber motions that are not extended when doing the form? Or is it through some other subtle motions?

Turns, lifted feet, stances, etc. could all imply potential kicks. The most obvious example is in the kata Naihanchi--I think it's called Chulgi in TKD, if that helps? There are sections where you do sweeping motions with the feet that, in addition to legitimately working as foot sweeps, can be the chamber position for shovel kicks. My style also makes liberal use of cat stances throughout our other forms, which take your weight off the lead leg, which frees it up to kick or sweep.

Absolutely... Also, I don't know if Kobayashi still includes Rohai in its curriculum, but that's another kata that has some implied kicks.

Chulgi isn't a pattern that we do. I do have a form that has the foot sweep motions in it, though, and I have been taught Naifanchi Shodan by sensei8. I'm interested in what the "shovel kick" is. I'm not familiar with that term.

[sensei8]

The "shovel kick", if you're referring to Naifanchi Shodan is, if you remember, one possible application. For us in the Shindokan, it's mainly, but not specifically only for it, it's a "check" to opponents leg(s) as we transition towards our opponent for our Tuite applications. It can also be used as a way to "check" off an advancing kick to our groin/lower area. As well as a possible application for a sweep of the advancing forward/front leg of opponent as they are retreating, advancing, and as well as what one can do to an opponents kicking leg AS the foot returns to the ground.

Kick is called by many karateka's, Nami Ashi: Leg Snapping Wave Block

Our Soke was quite fond of this kick as he used it dominantly while Kumite and/or with his Tuite. He could pull this kick out of nowhere, and at the most impromptu times, and in that, our Dai-Soke hated that!!

In addition, we believe that one should be able, if needed to and if at all possible, to shoot off an attacking kick with same foot/leg that one would use for Nami Ashi. I mean, why restrict said foot/leg if one can use it; it flows so well.

[sensei8]

Its interesting to me that you say they are "implied." How so? Is it by the use of chamber motions that are not extended when doing the form? Or is it through some other subtle motions?

Turns, lifted feet, stances, etc. could all imply potential kicks. The most obvious example is in the kata Naihanchi--I think it's called Chulgi in TKD, if that helps? There are sections where you do sweeping motions with the feet that, in addition to legitimately working as foot sweeps, can be the chamber position for shovel kicks. My style also makes liberal use of cat stances throughout our other forms, which take your weight off the lead leg, which frees it up to kick or sweep.

Absolutely... Also, I don't know if Kobayashi still includes Rohai in its curriculum, but that's another kata that has some implied kicks.

The great thing, imho, is that any and every technique is "IMPLIED"! But what one does with "it" at point of contact, is no longer "implied" at that moment. That's the beauty of the MA; we inventive human beings, while seeking out the most effective application, do create some great techniques, if given the time.

[Wastelander]

Chulgi isn't a pattern that we do. I do have a form that has the foot sweep motions in it, though, and I have been taught Naifanchi Shodan by sensei8. I'm interested in what the "shovel kick" is. I'm not familiar with that term.

Some people call it an "oblique kick." Conveniently, I made a quick-and-dirty, not-thought-out-in-advance video explaining it here:

Of course, as sensei8 said, it is just one of many applications . And yes, all techniques really are only implied until you use them--that's a good way of looking at it!

[sensei8]

Chulgi isn't a pattern that we do. I do have a form that has the foot sweep motions in it, though, and I have been taught Naifanchi Shodan by sensei8. I'm interested in what the "shovel kick" is. I'm not familiar with that term.

Some people call it an "oblique kick." Conveniently, I made a quick-and-dirty, not-thought-out-in-advance video explaining it here:

Of course, as sensei8 said, it is just one of many applications . And yes, all techniques really are only implied until you use them--that's a good way of looking at it!

That's close, but, imho, it's not the same as Nami Ashi. It might appear close, but it's not. What you're demonstrating is that your kicking leg is coming up first, and then out towards target, but in our version of Nami Ashi, for the most part, said leg is coming right from the floor, from Kiba Dachi, as its used in the Naifanchi series, across to the opposite legs thigh, at least that's how we execute it, and our hips must stay level, and not coming upward.

[CredoTe]

Chulgi isn't a pattern that we do. I do have a form that has the foot sweep motions in it, though, and I have been taught Naifanchi Shodan by sensei8. I'm interested in what the "shovel kick" is. I'm not familiar with that term.

Some people call it an "oblique kick." Conveniently, I made a quick-and-dirty, not-thought-out-in-advance video explaining it here:

Of course, as sensei8 said, it is just one of many applications . And yes, all techniques really are only implied until you use them--that's a good way of looking at it!

Good demonstration. Yes, many applications, even of the same shovel kick, as mentioned. Shovel kick can strike, block, etc...

[Wastelander]

Chulgi isn't a pattern that we do. I do have a form that has the foot sweep motions in it, though, and I have been taught Naifanchi Shodan by sensei8. I'm interested in what the "shovel kick" is. I'm not familiar with that term.

Some people call it an "oblique kick." Conveniently, I made a quick-and-dirty, not-thought-out-in-advance video explaining it here:

Of course, as sensei8 said, it is just one of many applications . And yes, all techniques really are only implied until you use them--that's a good way of looking at it!

That's close, but, imho, it's not the same as Nami Ashi. It might appear close, but it's not. What you're demonstrating is that your kicking leg is coming up first, and then out towards target, but in our version of Nami Ashi, for the most part, said leg is coming right from the floor, from Kiba Dachi, as its used in the Naifanchi series, across to the opposite legs thigh, at least that's how we execute it, and our hips must stay level, and not coming upward.

That is what I meant by "implied" rather than "explicit." When we practice Naihanchi, our hips also stay level during nami-gaeshi/nami-ashi, and the foot comes to the thigh. The foot going to the thigh tells you where to kick when you torque your hips and extend the kick. This is just part of our bunkai method, of course, so that doesn't necessarily fit everyone's style.

[CredoTe]

Chulgi isn't a pattern that we do. I do have a form that has the foot sweep motions in it, though, and I have been taught Naifanchi Shodan by sensei8. I'm interested in what the "shovel kick" is. I'm not familiar with that term.

Some people call it an "oblique kick." Conveniently, I made a quick-and-dirty, not-thought-out-in-advance video explaining it here:

Of course, as sensei8 said, it is just one of many applications . And yes, all techniques really are only implied until you use them--that's a good way of looking at it!

That's close, but, imho, it's not the same as Nami Ashi. It might appear close, but it's not. What you're demonstrating is that your kicking leg is coming up first, and then out towards target, but in our version of Nami Ashi, for the most part, said leg is coming right from the floor, from Kiba Dachi, as its used in the Naifanchi series, across to the opposite legs thigh, at least that's how we execute it, and our hips must stay level, and not coming upward.

That is what I meant by "implied" rather than "explicit." When we practice Naihanchi, our hips also stay level during nami-gaeshi/nami-ashi, and the foot comes to the thigh. The foot going to the thigh tells you where to kick when you torque your hips and extend the kick. This is just part of our bunkai method, of course, so that doesn't necessarily fit everyone's style.

Agreed, Wastelander. Part of the differences in application between styles can be attributed to differences in stances taken during execution. Bob mentions Kiba dachi; in Matsubayashi-Ryu, and from observances Kyobayashi-Ryu too, we do not have a Kiba dachi. Naihanchi is executed in Naihanchi dachi, which, by its nature, is nowhere near as long/wide as Kiba dachi, but is still deep. This enables mobility and control of tanden, thus enabling the bunkai you demonstrated in your video.

For those that practice such waza and bunkai in Kiba dachi, the bunkai you showed might not be feasible because of the longer/wider stance. Too much shifting of tanden would occur, which would throw you off balance, off target, etc...

Just food for thought...

[sensei8]

Just for grins and giggles...

Our stances are more upright, so, our Kiba Dachi isn't as low and as wide as it is normal seen.

[CredoTe]

Just for grins and giggles...

Our stances are more upright, so, our Kiba Dachi isn't as low and as wide as it is normal seen.

Oh... I didn't realize that, Bob. I apologize. All the Kiba Dachis I've seen were at tournaments and they seemed way wide/long; so much so, that I didn't see the practical use because they looked too immobile to do anything...

Maybe your Kiba Dachi is closer in dimensions to Shiko Dachi or Jigotai Dachi..?