Defiant and Lazy

[CredoTe]

UPDATE: So far, we've been incorporating the part of mal103's suggestion of putting the student in question with a senior student. Sometimes we make the senior student switch places in line, other times we make the student in question switch places in line; all in attempt to avoid him getting a feeling of getting picked on by we instructors.

The senior student that the student in question is shadowing has a decent rapport with the student, and, indeed, the student in question responds a smidgeon better to this senior student than to either my instructor or I.

The progress has been very slow and almost like pulling teeth, but that's OK; we've at least found a method to which he's positively responding.

[Zaine]

UPDATE: So far, we've been incorporating the part of mal103's suggestion of putting the student in question with a senior student. Sometimes we make the senior student switch places in line, other times we make the student in question switch places in line; all in attempt to avoid him getting a feeling of getting picked on by we instructors.

The senior student that the student in question is shadowing has a decent rapport with the student, and, indeed, the student in question responds a smidgeon better to this senior student than to either my instructor or I.

The progress has been very slow and almost like pulling teeth, but that's OK; we've at least found a method to which he's positively responding.

That's great news! Everybody learns differently so it's awesome that you've found his niche!

[bushido_man96]

Well, progress is progress! Glad to hear that something is working for you.

[CredoTe]

UPDATE: We were making progress with the student, but, unfortunately, we ended up losing him, anyway. Near the end of class two Mondays ago, he flat out said that he "doesn't want to be here, anymore". His mother left with him that night rather angry with him; we haven't seen him since then, and all attempts to contact his parents have been met with crickets.

I don't expect to see this student back.

So...

Those of you that have dealt with this before, what have you done differently after such an experience to better yourself, and better prepare yourself to deal with these situations in the future? Of course, I'm meticulously scrutinizing my handling of this situation for everything that I could have done better or different.

I realize, in the end, some students aren't cut out for it and will quit no matter what. But, I can't help thinking that maybe I could have tried something different that might have better connected with this student and gave him a reason to continue.

[sensei8]

CredoTe,

Students come and students go for various reasons.

In that, I don't let it get to me because it was their decision to leave. If students want to leave, then leave, the sooner the better!! I've got more to do than worry about why a student left my dojo.

I don't get mad and I don't get sad and I don't question myself. The ratio of retention is high and the ratio for those quitting is low; therefore, the problem, imho, isn't with me or my instructors or the curriculum or the tuition or anything else that I can put my finger on.

If my ration was flip flopped, well, then I would worry, and in that, I'd figure out the problem(s) quick before the doors shut forever!! But the ratio's aren't backwards. I suppose that I don't worry about not having any students before because I've always had them.

Again, students come and students go!! I just don't get that attached to students because of my opening statement.

Some students just can't hang! Some students move! Some students have a job schedule change! Some decide that the MA isn't for them; they tried it, but they just don't like it. They thought that they would like it, but then they changed their mind. IT HAPPENS!!

Sure, you hate to lose students for any reason(s). I believe that's natural to feel that way. I'm lucky that way because from as long as I can remember, I just don't worry about, nor do I care when a student leaves my dojo. I never lose any sleep over a student quitting/leaving.

I've other things more important to be worried about, like the students that are still there. They deserve that from me and my dojo!! It's about the 'now' and not about the 'before' so that the 'future' is a possibility. But all of that is up to the student, and not up to me.

You see, students are people, and in that, I don't own them, therefore, students come and students go. I believe that it's just that simple.

[CredoTe]

CredoTe,

Students come and students go for various reasons.

In that, I don't let it get to me because it was their decision to leave. If students want to leave, then leave, the sooner the better!! I've got more to do than worry about why a student left my dojo.

I don't get mad and I don't get sad and I don't question myself. The ratio of retention is high and the ratio for those quitting is low; therefore, the problem, imho, isn't with me or my instructors or the curriculum or the tuition or anything else that I can put my finger on.

If my ration was flip flopped, well, then I would worry, and in that, I'd figure out the problem(s) quick before the doors shut forever!! But the ratio's aren't backwards. I suppose that I don't worry about not having any students before because I've always had them.

Again, students come and students go!! I just don't get that attached to students because of my opening statement.

Some students just can't hang! Some students move! Some students have a job schedule change! Some decide that the MA isn't for them; they tried it, but they just don't like it. They thought that they would like it, but then they changed their mind. IT HAPPENS!!

Sure, you hate to lose students for any reason(s). I believe that's natural to feel that way. I'm lucky that way because from as long as I can remember, I just don't worry about, nor do I care when a student leaves my dojo. I never lose any sleep over a student quitting/leaving.

I've other things more important to be worried about, like the students that are still there. They deserve that from me and my dojo!! It's about the 'now' and not about the 'before' so that the 'future' is a possibility. But all of that is up to the student, and not up to me.

You see, students are people, and in that, I don't own them, therefore, students come and students go. I believe that it's just that simple.

Great advice, Bob I thank you for it... I definitely don't doubt my MA skill or ability to teach; I'm very confident in those. However, realizing reaching all of our students in a manner that they can understand and do what we're teaching is where I'm shaky. Again, I understand that there will always be those that quit, that it's nigh impossible to have 100% retention.

The main economical reason we worry over students quitting is because we're a small dojo (~50 students total on roster). Assuredly, we don't kiss anyone's behind to keep them; but, we have pressing economic motivation to keep all of our students because a drop in just a few students has a huge impact on our monthly budget. We're in a small town, so the local economy doesn't support monthly recreational activities at or above $100/month. We're already the highest priced dojo in town (3 total including us). Of course, this begs a question that's always in my mind: how do we become an economically sound dojo without becoming a Mcdojo? There are plenty of them out there, we just have to figure out how to do it...

This starts to swerve into a different topic, but there it is It might be time to renegotiate our rent or move to a community center/church so we can focus on the art as the sole reason for retaining students; it already is, just it's part of a two-headed troll that includes cost of business as motivation for keeping students...lol If we're in a rec/community center, where rent would be dirt cheap, cost of business isn't as much of a factor. (Maybe that would turn it into a "luv-able" two-headed Internet kitty? )

[sensei8]

Great advice, Bob I thank you for it... I definitely don't doubt my MA skill or ability to teach; I'm very confident in those. However, realizing reaching all of our students in a manner that they can understand and do what we're teaching is where I'm shaky. Again, I understand that there will always be those that quit, that it's nigh impossible to have 100% retention.

Teach them per the syllabus at first so that they begin to understand said technique(s). Then, for those students that might be struggling, spend time with them until their AHA light comes on. You'll be fine, however, believing in your teaching abilities is quite important.

The main economical reason we worry over students quitting is because we're a small dojo (~50 students total on roster). Assuredly, we don't kiss anyone's behind to keep them; but, we have pressing economic motivation to keep all of our students because a drop in just a few students has a huge impact on our monthly budget. We're in a small town, so the local economy doesn't support monthly recreational activities at or above $100/month. We're already the highest priced dojo in town (3 total including us). Of course, this begs a question that's always in my mind: how do we become an economically sound dojo without becoming a Mcdojo? There are plenty of them out there, we just have to figure out how to do it...

Don't underestimate your students abilities to understand and know what's involved in running a dojo. Students know that as the numbers decrease, so might their opportunity of having a place to learn and train in. Well, the kids might not know, but the adults know that they're important to the existence of the dojo. If you're solid, the adults/parents will reciprocate you by showing you their loyalty and devotion by staying.

You don't become a McDojo by having an economic stand on your tuition. If you've lowered them, tell your students exactly why you did what you did. That's exactly what I did when the economic downturn began. I dropped the tuition down to its bare essentials because I wanted them to have a place to train, and I wanted that place to still be my dojo. I ended all testing fees, and I told them why. Anyone hates surprises, MA students aren't any different in this regard. You know what a McDojo is, so don't become one!!

This starts to swerve into a different topic, but there it is It might be time to renegotiate our rent or move to a community center/church so we can focus on the art as the sole reason for retaining students; it already is, just it's part of a two-headed troll that includes cost of business as motivation for keeping students...lol If we're in a rec/community center, where rent would be dirt cheap, cost of business isn't as much of a factor. (Maybe that would turn it into a "luv-able" two-headed Internet kitty?

Imho, everyone should renegotiate their rent every time it's time to sign a new lease contract. If not, an injustice befalls upon the students. If moving will improve things, then move. Just be up front with your students just as soon as you know it's going to happen, not at the last minute. While the lose of your dojo would vex you, a new place can generate positive spirits for everyone, including you.

Sometimes, when turning the page offers new joys and expectations, one can't forget that you all must be on the same page, at all times.

Hang in there!!

[Hawkmoon]

I've been 'aware' of this thread, my direct thinking on occasion I felt would be unwarranted and unneeded/unnecessary here.

But...

(There is always a but)..... I checked in and tripped over a comment and wanted to stand up and be counted along side it!

CredoTe wrote

....rapport with the student....

It is the single most important thing anyone can do!

This builds respect this builds trust, the result is understanding!

I'll add I watched a young girl attend my youngest sons club for the first time on Wednesday, she was about 3inches tall! (seriously tiny, really small) and not at all happy about the strange world she was now looking upon!

She was in tears, hiding inside her dads coat...!

My sons Sensai spent time speaking with her and Dad and asked Dad to come in and watch at the back with her. Then as the session went on, he would ask different students to go over and chat with them.

Always watching what response they got.

One student made a connection, and the little girl started to 'copy what was being done, about 20 mins later it was all smiles and then another 20 or so Dad was allowed to step outside and watch!

MA in some schools is very military like, yet other schools some might describe them as mcdojos, but putting that aside, MA is what you make it, it it feels right ...its because it is right for you!

If there is no connection, no rapport there is no point...why make a bad situation worse?

The lad in this scenario is clearly very large so would have been put upon to do or advise or even see things by people who see him being more than his actual youthful 14 years, the little girl who came to my sons club, so small so petite would have been protected shielded from pretty much everything.

With the girl her 'wrapped in cotton wool' life to date has not allowed her to develop any measurable confidence.

With the lad it sounds to me that he is simply reacting as a child does to being forced, expected to do things beyond his years, in both cases confidence has taken a beating and each child is pulling back as is natural for anyone in such a strange place.

[CredoTe]

I've been 'aware' of this thread, my direct thinking on occasion I felt would be unwarranted and unneeded/unnecessary here.

But...

(There is always a but)..... I checked in and tripped over a comment and wanted to stand up and be counted along side it!

CredoTe wrote

....rapport with the student....

It is the single most important thing anyone can do!

This builds respect this builds trust, the result is understanding!

I'll add I watched a young girl attend my youngest sons club for the first time on Wednesday, she was about 3inches tall! (seriously tiny, really small) and not at all happy about the strange world she was now looking upon!

She was in tears, hiding inside her dads coat...!

My sons Sensai spent time speaking with her and Dad and asked Dad to come in and watch at the back with her. Then as the session went on, he would ask different students to go over and chat with them.

Always watching what response they got.

One student made a connection, and the little girl started to 'copy what was being done, about 20 mins later it was all smiles and then another 20 or so Dad was allowed to step outside and watch!

MA in some schools is very military like, yet other schools some might describe them as mcdojos, but putting that aside, MA is what you make it, it it feels right ...its because it is right for you!

If there is no connection, no rapport there is no point...why make a bad situation worse?

The lad in this scenario is clearly very large so would have been put upon to do or advise or even see things by people who see him being more than his actual youthful 14 years, the little girl who came to my sons club, so small so petite would have been protected shielded from pretty much everything.

With the girl her 'wrapped in cotton wool' life to date has not allowed her to develop any measurable confidence.

With the lad it sounds to me that he is simply reacting as a child does to being forced, expected to do things beyond his years, in both cases confidence has taken a beating and each child is pulling back as is natural for anyone in such a strange place.

Very solid post, Hawkmoon Thanks for that...

[mal103]

Losing students is horrible, some are just waiting for an excuse to give up though.

I lost a student that was very keen and half way to Black Belt, I thought he was hooked but he suddenly left and was then very anti Karate.

This hit me hard as you expect lower grades to drop out or senior grades if they are still not that interested - very rare though.

Later on I discovered that he was into hill walking then suddenly changed to Judo, then suddenly changed to Karate, now he is on about the next big thing... So I guess he can't stick at anything long term so I don't feel so bad about him leaving.

I did the same thing and looked inwards at my teaching etc but as stated earlier retention of students is high and only a few drop out so I am confident.

Forget this chap and concentrate on the other students.