What are the most practical and effective martial arts?

[Bon]

Or one art that does both.

 

Well done, Sherlock.

 

 

I think that's a generallity, and I can offer a dozen examples where it would be preferred. The one actually in the post where I said that (someone attacking your child) would be an obvious one. I'm not going to take my time closing distance... I'm going to run.

 

Always changing contexts to fit your argument.

Apparently you have not read this thread. I did not suggest it initially, superleeds did. Nor did he claim it was the "end all and be all". Please take the time to read the post before criticizing it.

 

Sorry. If I changed that to why would you support running as if it has universal application, would that be better ? If you support something, surely you must feel strongly enough to suggest it, otherwise you wouldn't support it, would you ? FYI, superleeds said 'Do you mean for self defence? In that case, running is probably the best art.' That's a pretty bold and definite statement to me, as if it's the be-all and end-all, which you appear to firmly support. If you read Jade's post, he recognised there are situations where you CAN run, so he did not offer a 'universal' situation.

Again, you seem to be addressing someone else's statement as if I said it. It was Jade_Lotus who said that running would be bad.

 

Nevermind, perhaps if you had more structure in your sentences, I wouldn't take 'you must assume that your opponent is faster or has better endurance' in the context of running, instead of staying and fighting an attacker..

And yet you posted one...

I didn't reply in the same context, or to the point being made, so I haven't 'responded' as such.

Considering the post I was responding to was simply an ad-hominim attack on me, it seems quite appropriate.

 

What's wrong with running away instead ?

Kind of like where you make a personal attack on me for making a personal attack on Jade? Would that be a hypocrite?

 

That would be precisely the example I gave you, and yes, a hypocrite.

However that is not what I did. I criticized him for *attacking* superleeds' statement as incompitent because it's not 100%, and then putting up a counter of his own which is also not 100%. That was the hypocritical act... and being personally insulting to superleeds is why he got a retort from me.

 

See above, he recgonised there are situations where you can run, then offered another solution. Do you think Jade might find it insulting he's being called a hypocrite when you've misread his post ? As far as everyone else can see, you're the hypocrite, you haven't properly read his posts and you have criticised others, including myself for doing such.

 

 

I don't and it's not important to my comment. He claimed that he was in a street so crowded that he could not possibly keep a safe distance from people around him. And that in this crowd, there was an aggressor (with a knife IIRC) on him faster than he could react. Apparently, this "shoulder-to-shoulder" crowd had no particular response and just kept walking along ignoring the knife-wielding mugger in their midst.

 

Again, you didn't read the posts properly.

[JerryLove]

The anecdote...get enough use out of your thesaurus?...about the child abduction is quite irrelevant. For one, I would never attempt to abduct a child.

So then your experiences when people run at you in a fight are not relevent to the situation I originally offered "run at an opponent" as a solution for are they;

 

I said "if they had your child, you would run, just at them",

 

you said "Every single person that has ever ran at me in a fight, to hurt me or otherwise gain advantage in that fight has never succeeded in that attempt."

 

Now you tell me that none of those situations relates to the one I suggested; therefore your comment is irrellevent.

Unless the attacker had already succeeded in kidnaping the child, why would you run? Also, running to catch an assailant, or would-be kidnapper is a completely different application of running than the application under discussion.

Based on what evidence?

I believe we are speaking about running when you personally are attacked.

Then you are dropping context; this was original broached by Jade Lotus when he said "So if someone suddenly and randomly attacks your wife and children, then running would be the best way to defend them?? " - Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 9:42 am

The point I am trying to make is that running works sometimes, but not most of the time as a FIRST option.

Since I recommend an awareness level that fights start at range, I do support running as a general first option.

As for football, the object is not to kill the other team, and therefore comparing it to fighting is quite useless.

The object is to stop the guy with the ball. One runner with one tackler and you would see a pretty high success rate of escape. I think a trained tackler with no interest in positive position trying anything he can to bring someone to the ground and failiing is very indicitive of what an untrained attacker who doesn't tran all day to tackle people will do when persuing a opponent of opportunity.

Breaking a neck, gouging an eye, arm, or other bone are not the rules for football.

And are irrellevent to someone you cannot catch.

Also, for football, the object of the game is to run. Again, most street attackers are not wearing complete football uniforms, including the protective gear.

Irrellevent to someone you cannot catch.

About forcing the fight to the ground, I don't believe in letting the fight go to the ground. Nothing I have ever said bore any relevance to "going to the ground."

And I did not say that you did. Stop straw-manning.

For rape victims, or near-victims. Most of them run AFTER warding off their attacker. Therefore, running was not the FIRST thing they did.

cite.

As for statistics, running reveals its head as what near-victims did AFTER warding their attacker off, or distracting their attention. Therefore, again, it was the SECOND thing they did, and obviously not the FIRST best option.

cite.

As for Jade's posts, you haven't read them. In one post he briefly describes his experience. He makes no reference to crowded, "shoulder-to-shoulder" proximity. In the next post he further decides to elaborate on what defines an "unexpected attack" and then proceeds to generally describe, in lay-mans terms, what is an unexpected attack.

"Have you ever been suddenly and violently attacked?? Obviously not..I have, " - Jade Lotus Thu Oct 03, 2002 9:42 am

 

"Maybe you didn't understand what I meant by suddenly and violently. I'll explain..an unexpected attack, you're walking along minding your business, people are walking next to you, typicall busy sidewalk." - Jade Lotus Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:39 pm (his next post).

 

I think I have been reading just fine.

In your example, you know aforehand that they will attack. They are pre-positioned for attack. The first decision has not been made, but the field set. You and your attackers are sitting on the same square. You could act first and run and it could work. That is not training for a sudden and "UNEXPECTED" attack, is it?

Your situation is far less impressive. 5 people and one might attack? The same thing that got me out of 5 definately attacking will get me out of 1 attacking.

BTW, I have trained where more than 6 people have surrounded me and attacked. Only after removing several of them was an opportunity to run made available.

Sounds like you need a new strategy.

Unlike the movies, people don't attack one at a time providing an avenue of escape where the others aren't attacking.

No kidding?

Even more potent an example, I have been attacked by five people on the street. People I didn't know, people who didn't look like a threat. People who minding their own business until I walked by and they decided they didn't like the way I looked.

Sounds like you failed awareness again.

Martial awareness, a nice catch word used by dojos and instructors of self-defense classes to feed their students "pertinent" information, and build self-confidence. Martial awareness is the same as simple environment awareness, or more aptly common sense.

It's specifically awareness focused on martial threats (opther people) as opposed to awareness on smog-levels or gas prices; but yes, there is nothing magical about the concept.

But martial awareness, or common sense, does little to foresee the planned ambush or sudden, instant attack, without provacation or indication.

That's supportably untrue. For example, robbers used to lurk near night deposits (may still). Most companies have people with large night deposites circle the bank before pulling up. This allows a look around for said ambush. It works. Your statement is a deomnstateable lie.

 

Lock your house, close your windows, don't go into unlit areas, don't enter your house if it's suspcious, avoid being near obstructions through which you cannot see, don't walk through crowds, etc. It's common sense and it generally works.

I'm not saying anything against being aware; what I am saying is that even being aware doesn't prevent 100% of attacks. And it is those attacks to which running is not the best FIRST option.

Nothing is 100%, neither running nor awareness. I recommend both as skills as they are typically enough.

 

I'll get to lotus's post after errands.

[DeeLovesKarate]

Shotokan, and BJJ

[Thai_Kick]

Muay Thai and Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do

[BlackI]

Any art is good as long as the instructor has a good philosophy

[Martial_Artist]

Jerrylove,

 

I find your posts reeking of net-trolling. You have offered nothing productive to this discussion, and , instead, have acted arrogantly and self-infatuated.

 

What is it you are trying to prove, and to whom?

 

After visiting your website I have reached a conclusion: if you are that sifu, or one of his students, then your perceptions about fighting have been sorely mistaught.

 

There is nothing more amuzing than finding a webpage where the person being photographed is so narcissistic that he must directly look into the camera and never at his intended target. That, alone, is evidence that the technique being performed is merely for show, and not a demonstration of applicable technique outside the dojo. I do not know the sifu, but he comes across as an arrogant, self-centered louse parading around as a teacher of the martial arts.

 

You, I am afraid, are counted among the many who hold many false ideas about the reality of self-defense fighting. These common misconceptions are accepted as truth, because they are taught by teachers who do not know what they are teaching; and someone new to the martial arts is not going to know how to judge what he is being taught.

 

You would do well to humble yourself and listen to logic and reason over what you have been taught.

 

Because I doubt you tak anything I say seriously (no fault of yours, you do not know me). I have gathered the statistics you requested.

 

LIST OF STATISTICS:

 

(Taken from Uniform Crime Report, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2000)

 

One murder every 33.9 minutes.

 

One violent crime every 22.1 seconds.

 

One forcible rape every 5.8 minutes.

 

One aggravated assault every 34.6 seconds.

 

One robbery every 1.3 minutes.

 

Crime is everywhere.

 

Do we not train in self-defense to defend ourselves against the worst-case scenarios?

 

Weapons used in murder:

 

Total: 100%

 

Firearms: 65.6%

 

Knives or other cutting instruments: 13.5%

 

Other dangerous weapons: 14.0%

 

Hands, feets, body parts: 7.0%

 

Weapons: 93% vs Body: 7%

 

Number of victims by weapon type.

 

Total firearms: 8,493

 

Knives, etc. : 1,743

 

Blunt objects: 604

 

Hands, feets, etc. : 900

 

Weapons: 10,840 vs Body: 900.

 

Murder is committed 86.5% of the time by strangers.

 

Aggravated assault, weapons used in:

 

Firearms: 18.1%

 

Knives, etc. : 18%

 

Other weapons: 35.8%

 

Body: 28.1

 

Weapons: 71.9% vs Body: 28.1%

 

There is a higher percentage that you will be attacked by someone with a weapon. Turning your back on this person is foolish.

 

For Rape: (Taken from Bureau of Justice Statistics)

 

Almost 70% of victims were victimized by a person close to them. Not a stranger.

 

Taken from National Statistics: The Rape Victim.

 

16% of cases involved a total stranger. 57% involved a date.

 

80% of all victims know the offender.

 

41% of assaults occur in victim's home.

 

19% at a friend's home

 

18% at night on the street.

 

60% of rapes happen indoors, in an enclosed an restricting area.

 

Taken from Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violent Victimization and Race:

 

Location of violent victimizations.

 

Victims home: 58%

 

Near victims home: 47%

 

Friend or neighbor's home: 38%

 

Taken from The Journal of Physical Education...

 

"A thorough review of the available literature has led us to some surprising conclusions about the effectiveness of traditional anti-rape advice. Women are often advised to use non-aggressive strategies against sexual assault....Research [tells us] that this is poor advice. According to one study (Zoucha-Jensen and coyne_, women who used non-forceful verbal strategies, such as crying or pleading with the assailant, were raped about 96% of the time. In the same study, women who did nothing to protect themselves were raped 93% of the time"

 

"....[researchers and law enforcement agencies] report a 55% rape completion rate against those who attempted to flee.

 

"Forceful physical resistance was an extrememly successful strategy. The complete rape rate dropped to...14% when the rapist's attempt was met with violent physical force.....Striking was more successful than pushing or wrestling (Quinsey and Upfold). Physical resistance...more effective when [the] assault occurs outdoors (Quinsey and Upfold)."

 

"Women are sometimes advised that fighting back will increase their risk of injury. There are two problems with this arguement."

 

"First, research shows that physical resistance does not cause further injury to the resister....In other words, resisters were not injured because they had resisted....After the intitial [attack], forceful resistance did not increase increase the resister's risk of further damage."

 

"Second, this arguement overlooks the fact that a woman who does not resist is virtually guaranteed to suffer the emotionl and physical injury of the rape itself. Even when the resisters are injured, the injury is typically much less severe than a complete rape would have been (Kleck and Sayles). Of those 40% of resisters who suffered physical damage, only 7% suffered injury as sever as a dislodged tooth. A woman who fights back incurs no demonstratable chance of additional injury, but she gains a 55-86% chance of avoiding rape altogether."

 

"Women who used knives or guns in self-defense were raped less than 1% of the time. Defensive use of projectile weapons reduced the rate of injury to statistical insignificance."

 

"...fighting [then] fleeing further increased the chances of avoiding rape (Bart and O'Brien)"

 

"....Current research indicates that vigorous...physical resistance significantly increases the chances that a woman will not be raped...."

 

Taken from U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Vicitimization in 26 American cities.

 

"Research has shown it is safer to defend against violent attack...than to resist with any other means such as...running away."

 

END LIST OF STATISTICS.

 

Your calling me a liar is a strong action. Are you trying to prove how tough you are?

 

First, your lack of ability to see the grand tactical advantage of an ambush, or the unpredicatable, unforeseeable circumstance of random attacks further attests to your true level within the martial arts.

 

You would be a fool to merely suggest that ambushes and surprise attacks are futile, or comfortably predictable.

 

General Sun Tsu's teachings, as any great military mind's, have shown surprise and ambush win battles.

 

If I plan to ambush a night deposit, no level of security patrols will avert that or even foresee it. (Another common misconception)

 

And surprise, unpredicatable, unforeseeable attacks do not magically become predictable and foreseeable because you believe yourself possessed of some magical martial sixth sense.

 

I do not appreciate being called a liar. Of my many faults, lying is not, and never was one of them.

 

I am finished. Your subsequent opinion is meaningless to me. I do not know you, nor do I care to. You have already sufficiently introduced yourself.

 

I cannot, in good sense, listen to anything further you might say. Therefore, I end this useless ramble about running. You have been put in place. I don't think you'll remain there, but it is not of my concern.

 

 

 

I could care less, Jerrylove, what your reaction to me is.

 

I have shared the truth to the other members of this forum so that the darkness that clouds your mind will not overtake theirs.

 

What you think of this is insignificant.

 

I have shown to the other members of this forum that running is a bad idea as a FIRST choice action in the majority of situations.

 

But running is a great SECONDARY choice action for these same situations.

 

Where running comes into play as a primary action are minority situations, most of them never likely to happen.

 

Where running is a secondary(fight then flight) option, these are situations many of us have a high chance of getting into.

 

I have nothing further to say to you. You have taken this personally and avoided using logic and fact, letting your personal ego interfere with growth and expansion.

 

I would feel sorry for you, but I don't care to waste my time.

 

p.s.

 

Patrick, I apologize for the nature of my post. However, I would ask that that be put aside in lieu of the level of statistical data I have shared with other members of this forum.

[Bon]

Very good post!

[JerryLove]

I find your posts reeking of net-trolling. You have offered nothing productive to this discussion, and , instead, have acted arrogantly and self-infatuated.

And lik the other two self-rightous narciccists who have said so this thread, you open with an ad-hominym that reaks of everything you are complaining about. You offer nothing productive to the discussion and act arrogantly.

 

If I were trolling, you would also be falling directly into my trap by responding; though I fail as a troll as I am posting too much.

What is it you are trying to prove, and to whom?

I am establishing that running is a viable solution to many encoutners. I am also responding to ad-hominm posts like yours.

After visiting your website I have reached a conclusion: if you are that sifu, or one of his students, then your perceptions about fighting have been sorely mistaught.

Cool, another ad-hominim not related to the discussion. Do go on...

I do not know the sifu, but he comes across as an arrogant, self-centered louse parading around as a teacher of the martial arts.

The appeal to ignorance. You don't know, but you talk any way. Would you care to tell me how this is a discussion of the applicability of running in combat situations?

You would do well to humble yourself and listen to logic and reason over what you have been taught.

I have yet to hear any, just a few obviously inconsistant anticdotes and a lot of ad-hominims. Tell me logically why running is not often a good option.

Because I doubt you tak anything I say seriously (no fault of yours, you do not know me). I have gathered the statistics you requested.

Great! Let's see what is applicable to the discussion.

Crime is everywhere.

OK. That's not very relevent as no one has made a discussion on crime rate.

Do we not train in self-defense to defend ourselves against the worst-case scenarios?

Not usually. Do you have a solution to an army of trained, armed men who snipe you when you are asleep?

 

snip a bunch of weapon use percentages, an opponent with a weapon at range (the most likely scenerio based on the listed statistics) is exactly where running is most useful.

There is a higher percentage that you will be attacked by someone with a weapon. Turning your back on this person is foolish.

Support this claim (that turning your back is foolish). Given that you can run forward faster than backwards, why would you want to flee more slowly? Or are you suggesting an option other than running (or surrendering)? What would you do against a drawn gun at (say) 20 ft?

 

snip some stuff on rape that also does not discuss the results of running except to claim that rapes often occur in enclosed spaces.

"....[researchers and law enforcement agencies] report a 55% rape completion rate against those who attempted to flee.

 

"Forceful physical resistance was an extrememly successful strategy. The complete rape rate dropped to...14% when the rapist's attempt was met with violent physical force.....Striking was more successful than pushing or wrestling (Quinsey and Upfold). Physical resistance...more effective when [the] assault occurs outdoors (Quinsey and Upfold)."

Sweet. This is actually on topic and useful. Thanks for the cite. I want to take a closer look at how those statistics were generated, but this looks like it would actually be a correction for my original statement in the instance of rape.

Your calling me a liar is a strong action. Are you trying to prove how tough you are?

Back to the hominim discussion. I already pointed out exactly where Jade said that he had been in a sudden violent attack, exactly where he said what you ment by that was "busy sidewalk" and exactly where the instance you were referring to was supposedly alone behind a theatre.

 

That said, an empty road cannot be a busy sidewalk. The statements at seperate times attesting that both were being referred to in the same instance are incongruant, and therefore untrue. Since there is no question that you cannot remember which, I must presume one is a lie... Do you have an alternate explanation?

First, your lack of ability to see the grand tactical advantage of an ambush, or the unpredicatable, unforeseeable circumstance of random attacks further attests to your true level within the martial arts.

That's a straw-man.

You would be a fool to merely suggest that ambushes and surprise attacks are futile, or comfortably predictable.

Yes I would. So glad I did not suggest that.

If I plan to ambush a night deposit, no level of security patrols will avert that or even foresee it. (Another common misconception)

One which, according to my former employer, has cut their robbery rates.

And surprise, unpredicatable, unforeseeable attacks do not magically become predictable and foreseeable because you believe yourself possessed of some magical martial sixth sense.

So, you feel that "survailence flights" are a waste of military time? And this trying to find out about terroist attacks (essentially civillian ambushes) are a definate waste, and situational awarenessis useless? Wow, that's quite a statement. Is that what you are saying? That there is no point being observant because it won't work?

I do not appreciate being called a liar. Of my many faults, lying is not, and never was one of them.

Where did I call you a liar that you are concerned about?

I am finished. Your subsequent opinion is meaningless to me. I do not know you, nor do I care to. You have already sufficiently introduced yourself.

Your actions signify otherwise.

I cannot, in good sense, listen to anything further you might say. Therefore, I end this useless ramble about running.

The "I'm talking but I'm not listening" defense?

I could care less, Jerrylove, what your reaction to me is.

Well, your "Let's not give a hoot who the post comes from, but look at what is being stated." lasted about 1.5 posts. Congrats.

I have shared the truth to the other members of this forum so that the darkness that clouds your mind will not overtake theirs.

So long as you aren't spouting rhetoric...

What you think of this is insignificant.

Well, I guess we know where you were coming form all along... What term did you use? Ah yes, arrogant and self-infatuated.

 

Thanks for the one useful piece of data in your post. I'm going to avoid responding to the remaing half-dozen or so ad-hominims as I am getting tired of typing the same useless information. The hypocracy of your post continuestoastound me.

[LeaF]

Guys lets try to keep it civil, don't forget what this forum is all about, "getting started in the martial arts", if this argument continues at this level I am sure this thread will not be around for long. You have both stated your opinions and reasoning behind them in great detail over the last couple pages, may I suggest quiting while your ahead. I understand you guys may be very passionate about certain topics, and if you feel it is nessasary to continue this "disscussion" please try to tone it down a bit

 

Cheers

 

LeaF

[Xtreme Fury]

Ahh.. this is really boring.... *yawn* Lets stop arguing. I wish I had as much time on my hands as you guys do.