How should a kata be performed?

[Hawkmoon]

Now that I understand! ':D'

kata is not a series of moves strung together and 'done' as if by a robot.

step , action shape, step stance, shape punch..bang bang bang...blah blah and so on and so forth.

kata is a series of moves that change/flow from one to another effortlessly.

Each stance, arm/leg movement (kihon-basic) 'hit' with perfection to then move into the next movement etc.

The active phrase in what you say is 'performance', kata is just that, you perform the kata as taught you perform the kata to show, demonstrate to others what was taught, what you recount from that teaching.

To change the playing field here.

Dance

Swan lake, is done as it has always been taught, different costumes, but the story remains the same the dancers all move in time with each other to maintain the pace and direction of the story, of the performance.

They don't put on 'Korn' latest album and run about on stage waiting for the other dancer to then throw them up in the air and then run to the next spot...whilst the other dancer cashes to to the floor.

Street dancer groups all work in a group each has an 'q' and a sequence to perform at the correct tempo to fit with the others as the music is playing helping them keep together and act as if one they keep the tempo matched to the music and each other.

MA, and so kata to me is the same, we all do what our Ryu says but we all do kata (within our respective Ryu) the same.

This to me must mean there is a tempo that we keep, and this is something we show in our performances for example at grading, how?

No one in a grading goes like a steam train, everyone in a grading will tend to complete the demonstration to within a second or two of everyone else.

EDIT - 23/10

This thread points toa mistake made in a performance of a kata.

the judges do see the mistake and do discuss it and go on to awards etc etc.

http://www.karateforums.com/antonio-diaz-ven-mistake-vt45757.html

The kata (as not an expert in kata) looks to clearly run at a clearly defined set tempo and speed, the demonstrator is not running away at light speed, as they are not stop - start - stop - start....and so on.

(In my ignorance) this allows the judges to spot the apparent only mistake...

[bushido_man96]

Swan Lake doesn't really relate to Martial Arts forms, in my mind. I understand the point you are getting at, but things differ between styles, schools, players, etc.

For example, DWx is a black belt in ITF TKD. I am also a black belt, but in a different organization (the Traditional TKD Association), and do many of the same forms DWx does. However, if you watch me do one, and DWx do the same one, you will notice a myriad of differences. She uses sine wave, and we do not. We move at a faster pace, doing more combination type moves, in my opinion. I probably wouldn't do well in an ITF tourney, but that's not what I'm geared for, either.

So, as you can see, not everyone that does the same form will do it the same way.

[Hawkmoon]

.... ITF TKD. ......the Traditional TKD Association...

That's a side to the discussion I'd not expected!

This Ryu is different to that Ryu as the other Ryu is different form the Ryu over there because.....blah ...blah....I think we all get that and understand, but ..... the same Ryu in a different organization differs?

Really?

Kinda of surprised and confused by that!

[bushido_man96]

Well, I'm not sure I'd refer to it as a "ryu," to be honest with you. But, that's just not terminology I use. You also have to kind of understand how much division there really is in the world of TKD. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but just the way it is for us TKDers.

[Hawkmoon]

Thats fine I for all my ignorance was kind'a thinking along that train of thought.

I do Kyokushin, as taught by Hanshi Arneil, which differs some from the Kyokushin that Sosai taught in the latter years of his life, that differs from the teaching of Shikyokushin....

...but were all kyokushinkai karate students, ultimately were all students of Sosai Oyama.

Hanshi himself said the last time I saw him (no not personal meeting, a tournament I was at as he spoke to us all) that he had worked on keeping the Kyokushin we were taught as close to the original teaching of Sosai out of respect for him.

So I guess the question is when you said 'sine wave' would that be (in my ignorance) like the difference in teaching styles of this master compared to that master?

(Hence the different organizations.)

[Kusotare]

.... ITF TKD. ......the Traditional TKD Association...

That's a side to the discussion I'd not expected!

This Ryu is different to that Ryu as the other Ryu is different form the Ryu over there because.....blah ...blah....I think we all get that and understand, but ..... the same Ryu in a different organization differs?

Really?

Kinda of surprised and confused by that!

Hello,

A bit of useless information for folk that may be struggling with the word “Ryū” and how it applies to martial arts schools and, in the context of this thread, why it is important to understand the application of the word.

In martial arts, the most common translation for the word “Ryū” (written in Japanese as 流) means school, which although correct, ignores the full etymology of the word.

More completely, the word means stream or flow.

All rivers start at their source, turn in to little streams and proceed to flow through the countryside meandering and gaining in volume as they do so.

When you are part of a martial arts ryū, you are part of a metaphorical stream, in that you are learning from an instructor who himself learned from another etc., etc. - eventually going all the way back to the founder of the style (the source of the stream).

As you become part of that stream – you will add to it and, when you become qualified to teach, you will pass your knowledge on to the next generation of students and thus the stream continues to flow.

This is a more accurate understanding of the word.

As people we are all different (thank goodness) and of course times change. Whilst the Ryū may continue to flow, it is constantly added to and therefore, over time, inevitably there will be shifts.

In the Japanese martial world, you will often see the suffix “ha” written when mentioning a style.

E.g. Ono-ha Ittō-ryū

“Ha” in this case means a group or faction, in that although the school in question is an Ittō-ryū - it is a group founded by Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki – thus "Ono-ha".

His group therefore is a tributary of the main stream – however the key thing is that the core principles inherent to the main ryū.

This is exactly what is happening today with gendai styles/schools. It is inevitable that as they grow, there will be divisions and thus changes will appear however, as long as the core principles reamain in tact, the ryu will continue to flow.

K.

[sensei8]

.... ITF TKD. ......the Traditional TKD Association...

That's a side to the discussion I'd not expected!

This Ryu is different to that Ryu as the other Ryu is different form the Ryu over there because.....blah ...blah....I think we all get that and understand, but ..... the same Ryu in a different organization differs?

Really?

Kinda of surprised and confused by that!

Hello,

A bit of useless information for folk that may be struggling with the word “Ryū” and how it applies to martial arts schools and, in the context of this thread, why it is important to understand the application of the word.

In martial arts, the most common translation for the word “Ryū” (written in Japanese as 流) means school, which although correct, ignores the full etymology of the word.

More completely, the word means stream or flow.

All rivers start at their source, turn in to little streams and proceed to flow through the countryside meandering and gaining in volume as they do so.

When you are part of a martial arts ryū, you are part of a metaphorical stream, in that you are learning from an instructor who himself learned from another etc., etc. - eventually going all the way back to the founder of the style (the source of the stream).

As you become part of that stream – you will add to it and, when you become qualified to teach, you will pass your knowledge on to the next generation of students and thus the stream continues to flow.

This is a more accurate understanding of the word.

As people we are all different (thank goodness) and of course times change. Whilst the Ryū may continue to flow, it is constantly added to and therefore, over time, inevitably there will be shifts.

In the Japanese martial world, you will often see the suffix “ha” written when mentioning a style.

E.g. Ono-ha Ittō-ryū

“Ha” in this case means a group or faction, in that although the school in question is an Ittō-ryū - it is a group founded by Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki – thus "Ono-ha".

His group therefore is a tributary of the main stream – however the key thing is that the core principles inherent to the main ryū.

This is exactly what is happening today with gendai styles/schools. It is inevitable that as they grow, there will be divisions and thus changes will appear however, as long as the core principles reamain in tact, the ryu will continue to flow.

K.

Solid post!!

[Harkon72]

"Ryu" is also the Japanese word for "Dragon". We are Dragon Martial Arts, in Japanese; Budo Ryu Kai. There is a shotokan club just down the Road from us, they are called the Seki Ryu Zan or Mountain of the Red Dragon. Language is a fascinating subject, at best lost in translation.

[Kusotare]

Language is a fascinating subject, at best lost in translation.

Not if you invest some time working it out.

K.

[Harkon72]

Welsh to English is a challenge, Japanese to Welsh is quite Entertaining!