How should a kata be performed?

[bushido_man96]

I do Kyokushin, as taught by Hanshi Arneil, which differs some from the Kyokushin that Sosai taught in the latter years of his life, that differs from the teaching of Shikyokushin....

...but were all kyokushinkai karate students, ultimately were all students of Sosai Oyama.

Hanshi himself said the last time I saw him (no not personal meeting, a tournament I was at as he spoke to us all) that he had worked on keeping the Kyokushin we were taught as close to the original teaching of Sosai out of respect for him.

I also wonder, along these lines, doesn't Kyokushin katas differ from the way they are done in Shotokan? After all, Oyama learned them as a Shotokan practitioner, didn't he?

So I guess the question is when you said 'sine wave' would that be (in my ignorance) like the difference in teaching styles of this master compared to that master?

(Hence the different organizations.)

Well, sine wave is a part of the forms that is done in various ITF schools. Some do a "full" sine wave, or a more "natural" sine wave. It just depends really on when the masters were trained by General Choi, really, before they broke away.

Kusotare, thank you for your explanation of what "ryu" means. That really helps with understanding the whole process.

[Hawkmoon]

Yes they do.

Sosai Oyama actually made very clear changes to 'our' kata, his logic was simple if it didn't benefit or support his teachings it was dropped or 'made better/changed.

Hence in our system we have a Kanku dai kata but no Kanku sho...It was dropped as it was said to have no use or value to Kyokushin!

[Kusotare]

Happy to corrected, but I'm pretty sure the Dai / Sho (Big / Small) is a Shotokan thing?

Originally there was only Kushanku.

Wado-ryu practices only Kushanku - as do most other Shuri-te based systems as far as I am aware.

K.

[Hawkmoon]

Happy to corrected, but I'm pretty sure the Dai / Sho (Big / Small) is a Shotokan thing?

Originally there was only Kushanku.

Wado-ryu practices only Kushanku - as do most other Shuri-te based systems as far as I am aware.

K.

No no not a correction, not my meaning here were good!

They are a Shotokan thing as far as I am aware (maybe a language/dialect thing more than that) but you need to remember Kyokushin was developed form Shotokan.

For example we do have a 'Gekisai dai' and 'Gekisai sho' form (kata) in our syllabus, but we don't have a Kanku sho, just Kanku dai.

One of things that makes Kyokushin....kyokushin!

[bushido_man96]

Happy to corrected, but I'm pretty sure the Dai / Sho (Big / Small) is a Shotokan thing?

Originally there was only Kushanku.

Wado-ryu practices only Kushanku - as do most other Shuri-te based systems as far as I am aware.

K.

I do recall reading this somewhere before. I think all the Naifanchi katas were originally one, as well, weren't they?

[DWx]

.... ITF TKD. ......the Traditional TKD Association...

That's a side to the discussion I'd not expected!

This Ryu is different to that Ryu as the other Ryu is different form the Ryu over there because.....blah ...blah....I think we all get that and understand, but ..... the same Ryu in a different organization differs?

Really?

Kinda of surprised and confused by that!

Not to derail the topic but to shed a little bit of light on this: in TKD the organisation often dictates the style practiced and the two terms are used interchangeably. TKD is about as diverse as Karate is as the name "Taekwondo" was all but forced on anyone teaching martial arts in Korea in the 1950s. So we have rely a whole range of styles that fall under the TKD name.

It's long and complicated and tangled up in North / South Korean politics but largely we have 2 main "styles", those allied to ITF (North Korea) and those to WTF (South Korea). In addition you also have groups that either didn't join either of the federations or that broke away at some point thus resulting in another sub-style of TKD.

I know that this is Karate topic but it is interesting to see how different groups practice the same kata as there is also a lot of difference in TKD too. To explain it a little better, here's an example of what's generally considered right by the ITF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Z6bhDHDDA although because it's competition it's over exaggerated.

Compare that to this rendition:

The differences should be obvious yet both renditions would be deemed right by their respective organisation.

Even if we look at ITF on its own (because that's what I know about ) there are most certainly stylist changes between country and depending on who your master is. Subtle but definitely noticeable. You can usually tell whether someone was trained in Russia or Czech Republic or England for example by ever so slightly stylistic differences. And also if we look at what was "correct" 10 years ago it most likely isn't the same today. For example, compare this video to my first link (skip to 3 mins in):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ-z1p74SQI

That's an official training video from the 1970s or 1980s. Even to non-TKDers it should look different.

How should a kata be performed? However you have been told to! It depends on what you are using it as a tool for.

[DWx]

Welsh to English is a challenge, Japanese to Welsh is quite Entertaining!

Anything to Welsh is a bit challenging You guys need to learn to be less about the consonants and start using all 5 vowels!!!

I have to drive through the valleys a lot and can never stop and ask for directions because I can't pronounce the place I'm trying to find

[Hawkmoon]

.... it is interesting to see how different groups practice the same kata as there is also a lot of difference in TKD too. To explain it a little better, here's an example of what's generally considered right by the ITF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Z6bhDHDDA although because it's competition it's over exaggerated.

Compare that to this rendition:

The differences should be obvious yet both renditions would be deemed right by their respective organisation.

Even if we look at ITF on its own (because that's what I know about ) there are most certainly stylist changes between country and depending on who your master is. Subtle but definitely noticeable. You can usually tell whether someone was trained in Russia or Czech Republic or England for example by ever so slightly stylistic differences. And also if we look at what was "correct" 10 years ago it most likely isn't the same today. For example, compare this video to my first link (skip to 3 mins in):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ-z1p74SQI

That's an official training video from the 1970s or 1980s. Even to non-TKDers it should look different.

How should a kata be performed? However you have been told to! It depends on what you are using it as a tool for.

Thanks Dwx nice post great videos.

The one that stands out for more me, in my absolute ignorance is the fist link you offer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Z6bhDHDDA

Keeping ignorance in the for front of my mind, to use that first kata performance as the example. I mentioned earlier to have one student go of like rocket at a grading where the other students go of slower , that is a perfect visual display' of what I mean .

For the kata and the guys performing them, I'm not taking anything form them, the art or the performance.

I'm not TKD so I cannot judge, and do not judge but I can see as you indicate differences, I've no knowledge etc of the art, but I do see speed, commitment, focus confidence and the tempo.!!

(as well as a little mind trick, not planned not wanted totally 100% unintentional but it happened none the less!)

The two start the kata, there is a clear difference at the start, and from here they both move into the same kata but they do so out of sync with each other.

Yet they both (upto a point ) keep the same speed, one is always one move behind the other, even when they are not able to see each other.....that is maintained that is until the mind trick occurs then the are almost in sync, a fraction off, one is now faster than the other by a split second out then as time moves a whole step ahead, but again tempo keeps them separate until the kata ends.

This is the sort of thing I mean, the kata is the source of the tempo I feel all kata has and 'if' the kata is taught equally and correctly is what should be seen and what should be done no matter who you are, tall short, big small.

I understand the ryu conundrum, the master influence, even country affect of any kata no matter who or what, but the kata is the kata, and will be performed over a time period that is going to be all but perfectly predictable.

[DWx]

Keeping ignorance in the for front of my mind, to use that first kata performance as the example. I mentioned earlier to have one student go of like rocket at a grading where the other students go of slower , that is a perfect visual display' of what I mean .

For the kata and the guys performing them, I'm not taking anything form them, the art or the performance.

I'm not TKD so I cannot judge, and do not judge but I can see as you indicate differences, I've no knowledge etc of the art, but I do see speed, commitment, focus confidence and the tempo.!!

(as well as a little mind trick, not planned not wanted totally 100% unintentional but it happened none the less!)

The two start the kata, there is a clear difference at the start, and from here they both move into the same kata but they do so out of sync with each other.

Yet they both (upto a point ) keep the same speed, one is always one move behind the other, even when they are not able to see each other.....that is maintained that is until the mind trick occurs then the are almost in sync, a fraction off, one is now faster than the other by a split second out then as time moves a whole step ahead, but again tempo keeps them separate until the kata ends.

This is the sort of thing I mean, the kata is the source of the tempo I feel all kata has and 'if' the kata is taught equally and correctly is what should be seen and what should be done no matter who you are, tall short, big small.

I understand the ryu conundrum, the master influence, even country affect of any kata no matter who or what, but the kata is the kata, and will be performed over a time period that is going to be all but perfectly predictable.

To be fair the Canadian is good but the Korean is in a different league altogether. IMHO I think the Canadian dips down too far - makes his movements bigger but also slower. Might be personal taste though. Looking at a finals match shows the practitioners more in sync with each other:

I can't say how it is for Karate or other styles of TKD but there is most definitely a preferred tempo for the style I practice and this is to do with the up down motion (we call it si e wave... Just don't ask ). In both videos I've posted, the competitors have most likely never met each other yet they maintain the same rhythm because that is what we are told is correct. Now this is competition so style and aesthetics are part of it and an individual may decide it is better to hold their kick for a fraction of a second longer or pause ever so slightly. When you have a lower level competitor vs a more experienced one then theycan end up out of sync because of this.

In this video you can see that the Russian is perhaps a millisecond behind on his moves and over the course of the whole tul this all adds up and he ends up finishing behind. He does hold his movements a fraction of a section longer.. Although he is also quite a bit taller so that does come into play slightly too.

In all honesty, I don't this there is a right and wrong method for doing kata.

[Kusotare]

There's a lot of snuffing and puffing going on there! It never really existed in most of Shurite kata from which these are derived so - what's that all about?