Shotokan as self defence

[muttley]

As a first dan in Shotokan and a prison officer, I am interested in what people think about Shotokan as self defence in todays world.

I read (a lot), lately I've been reading a lot of stuff by Geoff Thompson, Iain Abernethy and Rory Miller as well as listening to podcast with Kris Wilder. A lot of the stuff about karate in these publications are about how it can be great, but not in the format it is taught, karate (and indeed all martial arts now) train the student to fight against another trained fighter. In my experience, most violent people in society are not trained fighters, they are just aggressive and violent individuals who have some part of the brain (that tends to deal with reasoning) missing.

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

Also does Shotokan teach effective defence against weapons or against multiple attackers?

[pers]

As a first dan in Shotokan and a prison officer, I am interested in what people think about Shotokan as self defence in todays world.

I read (a lot), lately I've been reading a lot of stuff by Geoff Thompson, Iain Abernethy and Rory Miller as well as listening to podcast with Kris Wilder. A lot of the stuff about karate in these publications are about how it can be great, but not in the format it is taught, karate (and indeed all martial arts now) train the student to fight against another trained fighter. In my experience, most violent people in society are not trained fighters, they are just aggressive and violent individuals who have some part of the brain (that tends to deal with reasoning) missing.

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

Also does Shotokan teach effective defence against weapons or against multiple attackers?

karate shoud teach you to fight at any distance , that is why we have stances like hangetsu dachi , all designed for close quarter combat , elbow strikes or short punches and knee strikes all work well in close distances .

yes Shotokan can teach effective defence against weapons and multiple attackers , that is if you can find a competent instructor who can teach you all that .

If you go to a Shotokan dojo that only teaches long distance combat where all you do is fight in long and deep front stance then look at other dojos until you can find a instructor who has more knowledge of Shotokan .

I am afraid for every competent teacher who has the knowledge there are many that don't and are stuck at brown belt level in reality despite their high dan grades and flashy certificates

[muttley]

I know exactly what you are saying there. I have studied with many sensei's who are happy to just teach the grading syllabus and nothing more, this is great if your goal is to progress through the grades quickly to be able to say "hey look at me, I have a black belt".

I would much rather have a Sensei who teaches the syllabus but who also teaches the practical use of techniques against attackers. It's one thing being able to throw a decent upper block to thin air, but against an attacker intent on smashing a beer bottle over your head (or worse) will that block work? I am a great believer in realism in training.

[Harkon72]

I try to be a realist; my Sensei trains us in Self Defense and pressure points, he tries to make us feel the fear, then use that energy to our advantage. Panic energy can give you the edge in a choke or bear hug for example, there is no tap out; you must act or submit to start from the drawing board. Some say this training is dangerous but it takes a lot of control and discipline.

[yamesu]

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

This is exactly the problem I see with point based sparring, and why i think arts that focus on in-fighting, grappling and clinching (think Kyokushin, Judo and MuayThai) have an effective view on real world altercations.

Distance will always be a deciding factor but as you stated, and in my experience, an aggressor will move into range and breach the distance before there is even a lot of intent to attack shown (or it will happen so quickly there is little time to reposition).

While there is a good deal of validity in one hit "kill" mentality (Kyokushin is based on this principle largely) and moving in and out of range to get the single hit, being able to react when in contact with someone already is more reasonable when it actually comes to self defence IMHO.

Once you learn to gain control of the inside so-to-speak, there is much mroe control for the duration of engagement.

[CredoTe]

I try to be a realist; my Sensei trains us in Self Defense and pressure points, he tries to make us feel the fear, then use that energy to our advantage. Panic energy can give you the edge in a choke or bear hug for example, there is no tap out; you must act or submit to start from the drawing board. Some say this training is dangerous but it takes a lot of control and discipline.

And from:

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

This is exactly the problem I see with point based sparring, and why i think arts that focus on in-fighting, grappling and clinching (think Kyokushin, Judo and MuayThai) have an effective view on real world altercations.

Distance will always be a deciding factor but as you stated, and in my experience, an aggressor will move into range and breach the distance before there is even a lot of intent to attack shown (or it will happen so quickly there is little time to reposition).

While there is a good deal of validity in one hit "kill" mentality (Kyokushin is based on this principle largely) and moving in and out of range to get the single hit, being able to react when in contact with someone already is more reasonable when it actually comes to self defence IMHO.

Once you learn to gain control of the inside so-to-speak, there is much mroe control for the duration of engagement.

Absolutely! Great posts, Harkon72 and yamesu. The only thing that I would add, more of a clarification really, is that any Okinawan-te Karate (Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Rru, etc), when taught competently, has many aspects of in-fighting, takedowns, grappling, etc. These concepts are not just reserved for Kyokushin, Judo, Muay Thai, etc. This is one of the great misconceptions about Karate with the culprit largely being the world of Sport Karate / MAs (stop-go tourney point fighting stuff).

[yamesu]

I try to be a realist; my Sensei trains us in Self Defense and pressure points, he tries to make us feel the fear, then use that energy to our advantage. Panic energy can give you the edge in a choke or bear hug for example, there is no tap out; you must act or submit to start from the drawing board. Some say this training is dangerous but it takes a lot of control and discipline.

And from:

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

This is exactly the problem I see with point based sparring, and why i think arts that focus on in-fighting, grappling and clinching (think Kyokushin, Judo and MuayThai) have an effective view on real world altercations.

Distance will always be a deciding factor but as you stated, and in my experience, an aggressor will move into range and breach the distance before there is even a lot of intent to attack shown (or it will happen so quickly there is little time to reposition).

While there is a good deal of validity in one hit "kill" mentality (Kyokushin is based on this principle largely) and moving in and out of range to get the single hit, being able to react when in contact with someone already is more reasonable when it actually comes to self defence IMHO.

Once you learn to gain control of the inside so-to-speak, there is much mroe control for the duration of engagement.

Absolutely! Great posts, Harkon72 and yamesu. The only thing that I would add, more of a clarification really, is that any Okinawan-te Karate (Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Rru, etc), when taught competently, has many aspects of in-fighting, takedowns, grappling, etc. These concepts are not just reserved for Kyokushin, Judo, Muay Thai, etc. This is one of the great misconceptions about Karate with the culprit largely being the world of Sport Karate / MAs (stop-go tourney point fighting stuff).

Absolutely!

I didnt by any means intend to convey that I thought these were the only arts that practiced such aspects, but these are the only ones I personally have experience in

From the Shotokan I have been taught, its certainly effective!

Additionally, having trained Goju with Sensei Hokama himself, I can say that it is quite effective (and painful!!!) too.

I guess my point was that without practicing in fighting, clinching etc, there is a great deal of reality based training that is just not touched on.

Prob should have thought about the wording better beofre I typed it out....

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

As a first dan in Shotokan and a prison officer, I am interested in what people think about Shotokan as self defence in todays world.

I read (a lot), lately I've been reading a lot of stuff by Geoff Thompson, Iain Abernethy and Rory Miller as well as listening to podcast with Kris Wilder. ...

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

Also does Shotokan teach effective defence against weapons or against multiple attackers?

From what I have seen, the vast majority of Shotokan Clubs teach stuff that is not applicable for self defense. (Just look at the bulk of nonsense self defense out there on youtube). The names you list are shiny exceptions in that they teach and preach realistic self defense (correct mindset, strategy, tactics for avoidance and de-escalation and then realistic distancing and applicable techniques if things get bad).

Proper Karate regardless of style incorporates all distances, especially clinch and grappling range (to strike, disengage or throw from close range is included in all Kata - if you have the eyes to see and/or the Sensei to show).

For more realistic weapons tactics (defense) I would recommend Silat / Arnis / Escrima that are way better suited than Shotokan.

Multiple attacker scenarios are most effectively managed by Hollywood Movie-Ryu or in Fantasy Book-Do ...in real live, get a back-up team, get weapons, get out of there.

[CredoTe]

I try to be a realist; my Sensei trains us in Self Defense and pressure points, he tries to make us feel the fear, then use that energy to our advantage. Panic energy can give you the edge in a choke or bear hug for example, there is no tap out; you must act or submit to start from the drawing board. Some say this training is dangerous but it takes a lot of control and discipline.

And from:

Karate teaches us to fight to a definitive fighting distance which is usually quite far away from our opposition with a view to closing the distance in a strike, fights (in my experience) do not act out like that, instead the violent person gets in close with deception and attacks.

This is exactly the problem I see with point based sparring, and why i think arts that focus on in-fighting, grappling and clinching (think Kyokushin, Judo and MuayThai) have an effective view on real world altercations.

Distance will always be a deciding factor but as you stated, and in my experience, an aggressor will move into range and breach the distance before there is even a lot of intent to attack shown (or it will happen so quickly there is little time to reposition).

While there is a good deal of validity in one hit "kill" mentality (Kyokushin is based on this principle largely) and moving in and out of range to get the single hit, being able to react when in contact with someone already is more reasonable when it actually comes to self defence IMHO.

Once you learn to gain control of the inside so-to-speak, there is much mroe control for the duration of engagement.

Absolutely! Great posts, Harkon72 and yamesu. The only thing that I would add, more of a clarification really, is that any Okinawan-te Karate (Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Rru, etc), when taught competently, has many aspects of in-fighting, takedowns, grappling, etc. These concepts are not just reserved for Kyokushin, Judo, Muay Thai, etc. This is one of the great misconceptions about Karate with the culprit largely being the world of Sport Karate / MAs (stop-go tourney point fighting stuff).

Absolutely!

I didnt by any means intend to convey that I thought these were the only arts that practiced such aspects, but these are the only ones I personally have experience in

From the Shotokan I have been taught, its certainly effective!

Additionally, having trained Goju with Sensei Hokama himself, I can say that it is quite effective (and painful!!!) too.

I guess my point was that without practicing in fighting, clinching etc, there is a great deal of reality based training that is just not touched on.

Prob should have thought about the wording better beofre I typed it out....

I'm with you, yamesu. I'm not trying to say you were wrong or relaying that only those styles you mentioned have in-fighting, grappling, etc. I was merely trying to clarify some things, mainly for those whom may be unfamiliar to Okinawan-te styles and Shotokan, to which you added some more good points. I agree, there are many MA schools out there that don't do enough training in real-world applications.

[Nabil Kazama]

Yes it is good for self defense. Trust me, I know what it's like to take a hit done properly from my Sensei.

All I'll say is, I'm glad I don't train in a McDojo. Our Shotokan is JKA.