Full contact SHOTOKAN competition...any interest out there?

[pers]

Imagine hitting your oppoenet with the low side kick to the ankles or knees , they can cause permanent damage to the knee , so is it worth it ?

Is that even legal in regular shotokan competition? direct kicks to the knees? i've never seen any Shotokan competition where you can attack the legs.

I'm not sure we're on the same page, when I say "full contact" shotokan, i'm not talking anything goes, or using techniques that would be too dangerous for the ring. i'm talking about the current rules in regards to targets/striking area, and what you can strike with, with allowing of intentional knockouts, and fought in a continuous or point style, depending on your flavor.

I don't see how that would be any more dangerous than muay thai or an MMA fights i've seen.

No I am not sure what you mean by FULL contact either !

Shotokan fight with bare hands , to hit someone with bare hands full contact could be quite dangerous and even lethal , as I said we do make contact but with control .

As I said if you like to see what full contact Shotokan reverse punch can do then watch Lyoto Machida knock his opponent out with it in UFC.

http://youtu.be/a49ReMH6zME

[Hawkmoon]

Nice post and topic!

A full contact competition to any fighting art is IMHO always going to be a good thing!

Yes, such comment coming form a Kyokushin student is to be expected, but seriously, if you have to 'step up' when you are out, you have no time to set out the rules of engagement, the mats get the gloves and leg pads on!

Full contact competition gives the participants the experience and knowledge let alone confidence and mental strength to go the distance, no matter what the outcome.

I'd be interested in the rules and guidelines for such a contest, any ideas on what they are or would be?

Maybe an existing rule set (as a template) that would form the core/basis of this tournament?

[chrissyp]

Nice post and topic!

A full contact competition to any fighting art is IMHO always going to be a good thing!

Yes, such comment coming form a Kyokushin student is to be expected, but seriously, if you have to 'step up' when you are out, you have no time to set out the rules of engagement, the mats get the gloves and leg pads on!

Full contact competition gives the participants the experience and knowledge let alone confidence and mental strength to go the distance, no matter what the outcome.

I'd be interested in the rules and guidelines for such a contest, any ideas on what they are or would be?

Maybe an existing rule set (as a template) that would form the core/basis of this tournament?

I think it would something like this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoTJZ9vZfb0,

except fought in a continuous formant, not stopped for each point....with points being awarded for knocking down your opponent, like you would in kyokushin, knocking out you opponent, or removing their footing and succesfully following up and attacking.

I also feel like points should be award and emphisized on style,

As you said, your kyokushin stylist, which is a style I have a lof of respect for, very tough competition, but I don't want to see Shotokan stylist fight like kyokushin fighters, trading shots like some, not all, but a lot of fighters i've seen stand toe to toe slugging it... Not that it's a bad thing, but that's the spirit and heart of kyokushin I feel, where as shotokan stylist emphasis a different style/spirit of fighting, and I feel points should be awarded for keeping in with that tradition.

Same targets apply as traditional, as well as face strikes limited to certain techniques. To pass atheletic regulations, they would probaly have to mandate the use of like 4 oz gloves like in MMA, which wouldn't be much different of an impact than bare handed and would protect the hands.

Pers said quote, "So my answer to full contact Shotokan for average people like me would be NO .... they are too dangerous and can cause permanent injury to the face and body"

I have to respectfully disagree about it being too dangerous. While it can be hard and damaging, shotokan has an emphisis on "one strike, one kill", you're pretty trying to use only one shot to end the fight, and not just rain down a barrage of bare knuckle blows to the face.

With that in mind, punching someone barehanded to the face, isn't "too dangerous" look at bare knuckle muay thai and boxing that's still faught today, that would still be 100x more brutal and dangerous the full contact shotokan, yet the guys aren't getting killed and recieving permanent injury like you say would happen in shotokan, and they're superior punchers.

Would it be more dangerous than this? I think not at all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye_Cq_cNon0 (this video is shinken shobu kumite kyokushin rules, or kyokushin kumite with full face punches, which is something i'd love to try)

[pers]

Chris , the idea of one strike one kill does not mean you throw one punch and wait and see what happens !

The concept is one strike one kill in an ideal situation ,but you would carry on with continuous attack until you achieve that .

[Hawkmoon]

Restricted face contact and gloves, MMA style gloves.....

...was what I had pictured in my mind with regards to this being a Shotokan biased contest!

The idea of a continuous bout is the only way to score and define a winner as well IMO. To stop a fight for no reason other than to say that was a nice punch...nah!

Better to use a points tally for such things in the event that time expires when neither fighter did!

Consider the collection of KOs!

Then this finals bout, (novice Heavy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NVPcj1uR2s

Bare knuckles is a good way to fight, like I mentioned earlier, '...you have no time to put your gloves on...', so you have to hit your target and make it count.

So when you 'punch' depending where that punch lands, or as we all have done from time to time, what it catches on its way through, its hurts you as much as it hurts them!

(Gyaku zuki thumb...anyone?)

Bare knuckle fighting gets you aware real fast about what to hit when to hit and even how to hit!

Using gloves on the other hand limits personal injury and increases the power an attacker commits to an attack as well as defense!

So a Shotokan FC contest is a good idea to test your metal so it should/must differ enough from current FC contents to draw both fighters and spectators.

The idea is sound, real sound, I'd say what needs to be sorted out is 'target area', rules and whether or not to ware gloves to with the idea of contact to the face.

So long as the rules target area buttoned up tight and what is permissible attire you may have a new fight offering to share with everyone.

[chrissyp]

Restricted face contact and gloves, MMA style gloves.....

...was what I had pictured in my mind with regards to this being a Shotokan biased contest!

The idea of a continuous bout is the only way to score and define a winner as well IMO. To stop a fight for no reason other than to say that was a nice punch...nah!

Better to use a points tally for such things in the event that time expires when neither fighter did!

Consider the collection of KOs!

Then this finals bout, (novice Heavy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NVPcj1uR2s

Bare knuckles is a good way to fight, like I mentioned earlier, '...you have no time to put your gloves on...', so you have to hit your target and make it count.

So when you 'punch' depending where that punch lands, or as we all have done from time to time, what it catches on its way through, its hurts you as much as it hurts them!

(Gyaku zuki thumb...anyone?)

Bare knuckle fighting gets you aware real fast about what to hit when to hit and even how to hit!

Using gloves on the other hand limits personal injury and increases the power an attacker commits to an attack as well as defense!

So a Shotokan FC contest is a good idea to test your metal so it should/must differ enough from current FC contents to draw both fighters and spectators.

The idea is sound, real sound, I'd say what needs to be sorted out is 'target area', rules and whether or not to ware gloves to with the idea of contact to the face.

So long as the rules target area buttoned up tight and what is permissible attire you may have a new fight offering to share with everyone.

Ty! Shotokan FC has a nice ring to it btw! The issue I think would be the biggest is face punches... from what I know you can throw back fist and reverse punches, and you use each technique to set up each other...I would like to see this idea get off the ground, but would hate to see people just relentlessly trying to throw haymark rights to end a fight.

you right though about the it hurting your hand as much as it hurts your opponents head though!

[Hawkmoon]

Shotokan FC..yes it does!

Not thought of that as a name at all.

I just trying to give your idea a different feel to the normal pictures people form when you use the mainstream names like Full Contact and Knockdown.

Contact to the face is going to be a pain,you either pad up like a boxer, or you do not 'punch' the face at all. Either way you will either look like the mainstream Full Contact or Knockdown tournaments.

Which is why I feel the use of MMA gloves is a good idea, but that goes against the reality of bare knuckle.

Step back look at the target areas you can or want to hit.

You want to hit the...

Body -- Yes

Arms --> yes

Legs --> yes

Head -- yes

Joints --> NO

Grabs --> ?

Face --> ?

Do you permit sweeps --> ?

Do you allow grabs to help drive a kick? -->

What about grabs to move close your attacker down? --> ?

(Boxing already does this so why not Shotokan FC)

Consider the fact that a bout is x time long, if nobody is KO'ed, and there are no 'style' points or warnings to account for then you need to setup a second stage to decide a winner.

Your looking at a time extension

or....

What about the weight of the fighters?

or...

sudden death!

I hate this as an option but, I have to admit with time running out in the main bout, the idea of loosing due to speed.....no not looking forward to that, the fighters should fight harder to get the win in the main bout.

What about fighters that want to move into the sudden death?

They move around they skip about never fully engaging...

Like I say I don't like sudden death I do like the push to end in the main bout, but the largest negative is the speed demon who waits for sudden death and never fully engages in the main bout.

[KyokanRik]

An interesting topic. Based on the style of Karate I practice I may be a bit biased in my opinion but I think adding full contact to Shotokan, with regards to certain conditions being met, would only serve to add yet another awesome dynamic to the style.

Thank you! I agree! Another reason i'm for this type of competition, is for the mental aspects.

someone once told me on here "fighting/sparring in the ring is just the same as it is in the dojo or the street" and which I disagree with 100%

I've done light contact sparring competition in TKD, and i've fought MMA and muay thai, and there is no way that the mindset is the same... knowing someone is going to try to crush your face or snap your arm, makes for a different mentality knowing some one is only going to try to light tap your face and chest.

It's one reason of two reason I like the idea of full contact Shotokan, the first is the X factor of fear and emotion, knowing that isn't going to be some game, that you're going into a fight. That takes a different mentality, which is semi simulates the mindset (Keep in mind I said semi simulate, not 100% replicate) what would happen being confront in a street fight/self defense situation, allowing someone to be prepared better mental, knowing what to expect SOMEWHAT.

and this leads into the 2nd reason, which is it would raise the confidence in knowing you own ability, and confidence in the art they practice. knowing it would work in a more realistic situation. That yourself and the style has been tried by fire and it is works when nessesary.

But that's also my personal preference. I love muay thai, boxing, kyokushin, mma not because they're full contact, but because they're tested in a more realistic manner in competition, where you have to apply it with nerves on the line, with a truely resisting, aggressive opponent,the trial by fire.

But that doesn't mean a full contact fight is for everyone, and that's ok, and you don't nessesarly need to fight to have self confidence or technique that works.

The whole idea behind this, is giving people who want to test themselves in their particular style and rules, in a competition that's a more realistic situation then light point sparring.

Very excellent points and very well said! You've encompassed exactly what my sentiments are on full contact martial arts, and the reasons why i hold such favorable sentiments towards them. Very good point about, while it may not 100% simulate a fight, you still undergo the same range of emotions as a real fight. Great post!

[Nabil Kazama]

I'm a Shotokan person and I've done a bit of full-contact training/fighting over the years. I'd say that if you're going to maintain Shotokan rules and fight full-contact you MUST wear protective gear. It is far too easy to hurt someone permanently when you hit them full-contact in the face. That's why Kyokushin doesn't permit face strikes in competition. That said, it is my belief that every Shotokan person who wants to maintain the martial aspects of the style should try some full-contact (with adequate protection) by the time they are brown or black belts. If you want to see how quickly matches end when Shotokan is used as a full-contact style look at the old JKA kumite of the 1970s and 80s. There are plenty of clips on-line.

Awesome post. My dojo is non-contact/Semi-contact. Part of me wants to do full contact but the other doesn't want to accidentally damage my opponent permanently.

I have conflicting thoughts regarding this.

[bushido_man96]

I'm a Shotokan person and I've done a bit of full-contact training/fighting over the years. I'd say that if you're going to maintain Shotokan rules and fight full-contact you MUST wear protective gear. It is far too easy to hurt someone permanently when you hit them full-contact in the face. That's why Kyokushin doesn't permit face strikes in competition. That said, it is my belief that every Shotokan person who wants to maintain the martial aspects of the style should try some full-contact (with adequate protection) by the time they are brown or black belts. If you want to see how quickly matches end when Shotokan is used as a full-contact style look at the old JKA kumite of the 1970s and 80s. There are plenty of clips on-line.

Awesome post. My dojo is non-contact/Semi-contact. Part of me wants to do full contact but the other doesn't want to accidentally damage my opponent permanently.

I have conflicting thoughts regarding this.

There is value in learning how to hit and how to be hit. I don't think it should be done all the time, and safety must be factored in, but there is value in it.