Shotokan to Shorin-ryu

[bassaiguy]

I may be relocating due to my job and in the area there is no Shotokan karate. However, there is Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. I've been interested in Okinawan karate for a long time, but I have to say that after 20 years or so as a Shotokaner (and several years in TKD before that) I'm nervous about making the swtich. What should I expect in terms of technical similarities and differences? I have several months to prepare, what should I work on to hit the ground running?

[Wastelander]

I may be relocating due to my job and in the area there is no Shotokan karate. However, there is Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. I've been interested in Okinawan karate for a long time, but I have to say that after 20 years or so as a Shotokaner (and several years in TKD before that) I'm nervous about making the swtich. What should I expect in terms of technical similarities and differences? I have several months to prepare, what should I work on to hit the ground running?

As someone who converted to Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi) from a style heavily influenced by Japanese karate, and someone who currently trains with a Shotokan yudansha converting to Shorin-Ryu, I might be able to provide a little insight. The stances are not as low, and most of the places your kata have kokutsu-dachi, Shorin-Ryu uses neko-ashi-dachi, so that is a bit of a difficult transition to make. After stances, I would say power generation is the next biggest problem. Japanese styles tend to be very hard styles that put a lot of power into everything, but Shorin-Ryu is softer and has more emphasis on fluidity.

[sensei8]

I may be relocating due to my job and in the area there is no Shotokan karate. However, there is Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. I've been interested in Okinawan karate for a long time, but I have to say that after 20 years or so as a Shotokaner (and several years in TKD before that) I'm nervous about making the swtich. What should I expect in terms of technical similarities and differences? I have several months to prepare, what should I work on to hit the ground running?

As someone who converted to Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi) from a style heavily influenced by Japanese karate, and someone who currently trains with a Shotokan yudansha converting to Shorin-Ryu, I might be able to provide a little insight. The stances are not as low, and most of the places your kata have kokutsu-dachi, Shorin-Ryu uses neko-ashi-dachi, so that is a bit of a difficult transition to make. After stances, I would say power generation is the next biggest problem. Japanese styles tend to be very hard styles that put a lot of power into everything, but Shorin-Ryu is softer and has more emphasis on fluidity.

Solid post!!

[CredoTe]

I may be relocating due to my job and in the area there is no Shotokan karate. However, there is Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. I've been interested in Okinawan karate for a long time, but I have to say that after 20 years or so as a Shotokaner (and several years in TKD before that) I'm nervous about making the swtich. What should I expect in terms of technical similarities and differences? I have several months to prepare, what should I work on to hit the ground running?

As someone who converted to Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi) from a style heavily influenced by Japanese karate, and someone who currently trains with a Shotokan yudansha converting to Shorin-Ryu, I might be able to provide a little insight. The stances are not as low, and most of the places your kata have kokutsu-dachi, Shorin-Ryu uses neko-ashi-dachi, so that is a bit of a difficult transition to make. After stances, I would say power generation is the next biggest problem. Japanese styles tend to be very hard styles that put a lot of power into everything, but Shorin-Ryu is softer and has more emphasis on fluidity.

Great post... Most of what Wastelander says is correct, but needs some clarification. I've been a Matsubayashi-Ryu guy for over 20 years, so here goes...

Stances & Movement: the best way that I can think of how to describe our stances is that they're deep, not long. Our stances only have two levels: natural standing and crouched. In any of the crouched stances (zenkutsu dachi, nekoashi dachi, jigotai / shiko dachi, naichanchi dachi, etc), the knees are bent far enough to be in a straight line over your toes.

For instance, our horse / square / wide-leg stances (naihanchi / shiko / jigotai, they're very close to the same thing) aren't nearly as long or wide as what you probably know as kiba dachi. We don't really do kiba dachi in Matsubayashi-Ryu. However, because our knees are bent deep enough to be over our toes, these "horse" stances are considered deep, but again, not long or too wide. Same with zenkutsu, nekoashi, etc.

In any case, all of the crouched stances are the same height. The height of your zenkutsu dachi = shiko dachi = nekoashi dachi = kokutsu dachi, etc.

The biggest difference I can think of between Matsubayashi-Ryu and hard Japanese karate is that all stances / movement are based upon natural movements / positions of your body. The reason for this from Matsubayashi-Ryu standpoint is that the longer a stance is, the more time it takes to move from it. Our stances are deep so we can properly apply fighting aspects of Iri kumi (in fighting) and tegumi (takedowns, bars, locks, grappling, etc) and still move.

Hard vs Soft: it's true that Matsubayashi-Ryu is fluid, but it is still hard. It's hardness comes at the moment of impact against our opponent. Whether it's a strike, kick, block, trap, lock, takedown, etc... It's like a bundle of iron chains with iron balls at the ends. It moves in a natural, fluid manner, and strikes in a natural, fluid manner; the moment a striking arm or leg makes contact with an opponent, these iron chains and balls solidify into iron bars for a split second long enough to strike through the target.

Power Generation: Power generation starts with good tachi development to root you to the earth to help develop the idea of drawing from the earth through the legs. From there, the legs direct energy to and through the hips. This is the beginning of what's known as gamaku.

The hips direct what was drawn through it to the rest of the body to whatever arm or leg the karateka is striking with. It's not just hips (not just "koshi koshi koshi"); the hips turn the body. Your body has a "gamaku zone": think of it as extending from the bottom of your thighs just above your knees up to about your diaphragm; almost like a batter's strike zone in baseball. Your hips initiate movement of this gamaku zone, but is not the only thing that moves. The entire gamaku zone moves as a unit, like a centrifuge, and directs power to your target via your arms or legs or whatever.

Kata: there are numerous differences in the kata movements between Matsubayashi-Ryu and Shotokan. There are 18 individual kata and 7 partner kata (Yakusoku Kumite). There's too much to mention, but there will be enough similarities that you shouldn't have too much trouble picking it up. IMHO, what's going to trip you up is the difference in footwork, body movement, stances, etc.

Nuances: the nuance you'll have to get used to the most is pronunciation of certain things. For instance, in Shorin-Ryu (Matsubayashi-Ryu or any of the others), what you know as the Heian kata are known as the Pinan (pro. "PEE-nahn") kata. There's probably going to be many little nuances like this that will just take time to get used to.

Remember, Matsubayashi-Ryu is the "youngest" of the four main branches of Shorin-Ryu. Osensei Nagamine was a student of several of the great karate masters of the 1800's that were part of the other three main "Shorin-Ryu" styles. So, Matsubayashi-Ryu shares many things in common with "Matsumura / Shuri-te", Kobayashi-Ryu, and Shobayashi-Ryu.

For more Matsubayashi-Ryu specific info, check out:

http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/

Please feel free to ask me any further questions here, or you can pm me. Also, if the dojo you will be joining has a Web site, see what they have to offer. If you share their site, I may be able to take a look and give you MHO whether they're cool or blowing smoke.

[Wastelander]

I appreciate the details, CredoTe! Since I practice a different branch of Shorin-Ryu, I didn't want to delve too deeply into details that I wasn't sure of. Your explanation is great!

[ShoriKid]

Ahh, the change in reverse I see! I went Matsubayashi Ryu to Shotokan. And now are area hybrid child of the two. We are a strange little bunch.

As others have said, the stances will be higher, lighter and depend on smaller movements than I found in Shotokan when I started training it. Higher, shorter and more closed in stance provides a quick, light movement and, to me, protects my legs/groin more. Fewer stepping/lunging techniques are present in Matsubayashi Ryu than I've encountered in Shotokan.

Power generation is different and the explosive contraction at the end of movements is different than what I found in Shotokan training. The timing and incorporation of a "feet up" body movement is very important in developing power.

When it comes to kata the Heian/Pinan katas are very similar. So much so that you will always be getting your peanut butter in your chocolate as I say. Flip the order of Sho/Ni in the kata series to start, there are no side kicks in Pinan shodan, the knife hands are very different in delivery and presentation. The differences are small enough that they can be hard to break out of old habits, but large enough that you have to work on them.

Think of Matsubayashi Ryu and Shotokan as cousins. Cousins from different parts of the country, but cousins none the less. You will find many similarities. But, there will be differences that must be paid attention to or you will miss out on a very nice style with a great depth and character. Best of luck in the new dojo. Be up front with your prior experience and enjoy being the new guy again. And, if something slips in from your old training, and it will, just shrug and grin and tell them it's just you getting a little peanut butter in your chocolate. (I hope I'm not the only one that remembers that old commercial)

[CredoTe]

I appreciate the details, CredoTe! Since I practice a different branch of Shorin-Ryu, I didn't want to delve too deeply into details that I wasn't sure of. Your explanation is great!

Thanks, Wastelander, and it's cool... I figured you were trying to give as much as you felt comfortable. That's why I didn't say you were wrong. Our karate's are like 1st cousins...

[CredoTe]

Ahh, the change in reverse I see! I went Matsubayashi Ryu to Shotokan. And now are area hybrid child of the two. We are a strange little bunch.

As others have said, the stances will be higher, lighter and depend on smaller movements than I found in Shotokan when I started training it. Higher, shorter and more closed in stance provides a quick, light movement and, to me, protects my legs/groin more. Fewer stepping/lunging techniques are present in Matsubayashi Ryu than I've encountered in Shotokan.

Power generation is different and the explosive contraction at the end of movements is different than what I found in Shotokan training. The timing and incorporation of a "feet up" body movement is very important in developing power.

When it comes to kata the Heian/Pinan katas are very similar. So much so that you will always be getting your peanut butter in your chocolate as I say. Flip the order of Sho/Ni in the kata series to start, there are no side kicks in Pinan shodan, the knife hands are very different in delivery and presentation. The differences are small enough that they can be hard to break out of old habits, but large enough that you have to work on them.

Think of Matsubayashi Ryu and Shotokan as cousins. Cousins from different parts of the country, but cousins none the less. You will find many similarities. But, there will be differences that must be paid attention to or you will miss out on a very nice style with a great depth and character. Best of luck in the new dojo. Be up front with your prior experience and enjoy being the new guy again. And, if something slips in from your old training, and it will, just shrug and grin and tell them it's just you getting a little peanut butter in your chocolate. (I hope I'm not the only one that remembers that old commercial)

Great post What you mentioned about stances being closed to protect your legs / groin is key. That's part of shime (to close) and involves your whole body moving in such ways to always protect your kill zone. Additionally, stances / movement also involves tanden (posture / control of your center of gravity). Thus, you're always moving in ways that protects your kill zone AND controls your center of gravity.

Yes, I remember that Reeses commercial with the two guys that crash their cars into each other, one eating peanut butter, the other eating chocolate...

[ShoriKid]

...snipping stuff I said...

Great post What you mentioned about stances being closed to protect your legs / groin is key. That's part of shime (to close) and involves your whole body moving in such ways to always protect your kill zone. Additionally, stances / movement also involves tanden (posture / control of your center of gravity). Thus, you're always moving in ways that protects your kill zone AND controls your center of gravity.

Yes, I remember that Reeses commercial with the two guys that crash their cars into each other, one eating peanut butter, the other eating chocolate...

Not being critical of Shotokan as I think it produces some great martial artists and has some good material within it, but I always feel over exposed when using more text book stances. Matsubayashi Ryu, and the bits and pieces of other Shorin Ryu styles I've been exposed to, seem more conservative in stance and movement. Shotokan's movements, and bassaiguy would be a great one to correct me, seem to be very committed. In that I mean that the power generation and strategy/tactics demand a kind of all or nothing approach to techniques. Either all in, or all out.

And at least I'm not losing it and someone remembers Reeses commercials too!

[Harkon72]

Funokoshi Shotokan is derived from Okinawan Shorin Ryu and Shuri Te, so their must be some correlation between them. My Parent style was Okinawan Shorin Ryu, as taught by Sensei Rikishi Oya. Years later I studied Shotokan under the JKA, there were similarities but shotokan stances were deeper and the koshi waza was different.