Mcdojos and Learning from Books

[drewtoby3]

We all know a good school and teacher beats these options by quite some bit. However, from my JKD post some members here have seen some book learned participants, and quite possible some Mcdojo goers.

My questions are as follows: Can beginners learn the basic techniques to self defense (punch, block, kick, ect.) from a book?

and...

From a Mcdojo can you learn an art pretty good if you stick around long enough?

One of my friends has been an ATA member for quite some time and seems to have at least the basics perfected (kicks and striking), not sure about anything advanced as we don't talk that often any more. But, I am worried about his sense of confidence, as I have read some bad things about ATA. I don't know how long he has been training there but I do know that there is a lot of speculation online over their curriculum and how long it takes to get a black belt.

[Evil Dave]

Remember a McDojo is how they conduct the business of running a MA studio and is not always reminiscent of the quality of instruction. As long as the instruction is good, I'm not overly concerned with their business model unless it is not ravaging my wallet or insulting.

[danbong]

Can beginners learn from a book? Not just no, but heck no! Even if a book or video could explain everything perfectly, you can't get feedback on what you are doing right and wrong from a book.

Now in terms of a McDojo, I hate that term because quite often it really means "they train/run their school differently than mine". JusticeZero had a good working definition that went something along the lines of: if you are getting the training you want for a price you are willing to pay and if your perception of your martial arts ability is close to what it actually is you are not at a McDojo. (my apologies to JZ if I butchered that). So to answer your second question, you would first have to give your definition of a McDojo. Also, you would have to state what your goal is for learning said martial art.

[drewtoby3]

Can beginners learn from a book? Not just no, but heck no! Even if a book or video could explain everything perfectly, you can't get feedback on what you are doing right and wrong from a book.

Now in terms of a McDojo, I hate that term because quite often it really means "they train/run their school differently than mine". JusticeZero had a good working definition that went something along the lines of: if you are getting the training you want for a price you are willing to pay and if your perception of your martial arts ability is close to what it actually is you are not at a McDojo. (my apologies to JZ if I butchered that). So to answer your second question, you would first have to give your definition of a McDojo. Also, you would have to state what your goal is for learning said martial art.

Very true danbong. I guess it comes down to instruction, even at these places. As for my goal, it is to learn as much as I can and try to perfect what I know.

[bassaiguy]

I second Danbong's comment. Beginner's need instructors. I'm currently trying to pick up a musical instrument and without a competent instructor my progress is s-l-o-w and my outcomes aren't likely to be great. Just think how that experience is multiplied when you have to learn to contend against another person under combat-stress.

I also think the comment on McDojos is right on the money. I've met some great ATA competitors and others that need some polishing - it's all up to the individual student and instructor.

Solid post.

[Wastelander]

There isn't really anything to add--everyone has covered it pretty well! Beginners cannot learn basics from a book or videos, and not all schools that have "McDojo" tendencies have bad instruction.

I will say that more advanced practitioners can actually pick up new skills from books and videos, provided they have a skill base to work from and a partner to work with. These should be used as extra resources for exploring new ideas, or variations on things you currently do.

[sensei8]

Can beginners learn the basic techniques to self defense (punch, block, kick, ect.) from a book?

Learning from a book is dependant on the individuals learning curve, so, yes, it's possible, but not recommended because feedback is essentially vital to the growth of that MAists betterment. I can learn math from a book, but I'd have a much clearer understanding if I had a teacher to properly guide my learning.

From a Mcdojo can you learn an art pretty good if you stick around long enough?

Depends on the teaching quality of the instructor. I've seen some pretty good ATA instructors, and I've seen some pretty bad ATA instructors. So, you can gain some solid depth after any length of time, but is that quality effective across the board. If the quality is sub-par, then even after some length of time, the quality of the student will still remain sub-par and then, bad muscle memory will be quite difficult to escape from.

Imho, not all McDojo's are bad in their quality, content, and context. It's just that their brand management isn't always about turning out quality MAists, no, it's the quality of their bank account. For the most part that I've seen concerning Mc Dojo's is that everyone passes no matter what and imho, that's only giving their students false security concerning their MA's ability. The streets is the wrong place to find that out after you've been in that type of sub-par learning/teaching environment for many, many years.

Everyone here at KF has their own opinions, but the decision remains yours. I wish you the most success in reaching your final decision. Hang in there!!

[DWx]

FWIW the main reason books and home study alone don't work is because the student doesn't have the necessary feedback systems in place. With an instructor you've always got someone looking over what you are doing and providing constant correction. Consistent bad practice will just ingrain bad habits which will be hard to correct.

That said, that's not to say home study programs can't work. The Gracie University program comes to mind. And I've always considered books and videos an essential tool to assist in everybody's training outside of the dojo.

[CredoTe]

Great posts everyone.

Beginners can't learn from books any better than they can learn from videos solely on their own. We give our students reference videos of the kata they have been taught; as they learn more kata, we put more kata videos on their disks. We make it blatantly clear to them: do not learn kata from the videos, they are for reference only! That's because, while the videos seem to show all the moves, there are many nuances and minutia that they will miss in the videos and require an instructor to teach.

IME, the McDojos with good instructors were once well-founded dojos that did very well in business, and as time went on, the dojos were passed down from parent to adult child and so on. As a generation or two went by, the control of the dojo branched out, and soon, the dojos became McDojos whether they know it or not. So, it's possible to get good instruction at a McDojo, just not likely IMHO.

[bushido_man96]

Can beginners learn from a book? Not just no, but heck no! Even if a book or video could explain everything perfectly, you can't get feedback on what you are doing right and wrong from a book.

I'm not going to say a flat "no" on this. Everyone learns differently, and I'm sure there are some people out there that can probably learn pretty well from books or video media. Would be the longer road to hoe? For sure. But I'm not willing to say it can't be done.

Now in terms of a McDojo, I hate that term because quite often it really means "they train/run their school differently than mine". JusticeZero had a good working definition that went something along the lines of: if you are getting the training you want for a price you are willing to pay and if your perception of your martial arts ability is close to what it actually is you are not at a McDojo. (my apologies to JZ if I butchered that). So to answer your second question, you would first have to give your definition of a McDojo. Also, you would have to state what your goal is for learning said martial art.

This is a very well put point. My first exposure to the Martial Arts was through an ATA school. I had some good instructors that were good technicians, and I don't regret any of the time I spent in the ATA. There are good ATA instuctors out there, and although there are some things people don't like about the ATA, that organization is willing to try to bring in new ideas and concepts to provide for their students, and the organization is willing to grow in that aspect.