Kyokushin and Shotokan

[Hawkmoon]

(apologies for the following essay, my passion for Kyokushin will come out and my annoyance at the misconceptions and misunderstanding many people have about Kyokushin will drive me here)

If you walk into a Kyokushin dojo take a little time to study the students as they train you will see things you recognize!

(Kata - kihon)

Kyokushin owes much of its foundations to Shotokan!

Kyokushin is mainly famous for its approach to 'full contact' karate, we call it 'Knockdown', its done bare knuckle!

We are also famous for one of the tests we have, the 100 man kumite!

(One fighter vs one hundred other fighters)

Kyokushin karate also calls itself 'The strongest karate'......no not because we think we are super hard, but because we exercise a great deal, much of a session in many dojos is dedicated to pushups, situps and so on! we exercise more than we fight in many instances!

We spar/fight as often as we can, and we take fighting extremely serious.

We do work the mind as much we fight, honestly we do, just take the time to understand/study with us to see the evidence.

Many look to our kata and say simple, not hard at all, easy katas, not so.

Sosai Oyama, selected kata for his karate (Kyokushin) with a simple logic if it worked to support his teachings, his karate, he used it, else it was dropped.

Example:

We have a kata called; Kanku dai - it translates to mean 'To Look To The Sky (Major)'.

There is a second kata to accompany this kata called: Kanku sho - it means 'To view the sky minor'

Both are in Shotokan.

The Kanku Sho kata is not in the our training syllabus!

(We used to many years ago, but Sosai removed it as unnecessary to Kyokushin.)

We do have a different mind set to many fighting arts, but then many other arts have different mind sets to other arts as well.

Our 'mind set' comes directly from Sosai Oyama, the best example of this mind set is in our systems name.

Kyokushinkai - the society of the ultimate truth.

Our philosophy is self-improvement, discipline and hard training, look at my signature for another example.

We train hard which is great, but honestly take a look at other systems, our philosophy sounds much the same as any other school.

Take your time, and when you decide to join in a session, seriously, do so from a beginners perspective, you'll be glad you did.!!

[muttley]

I guess what I am trying to say is that I want to try something different, Shotokan has served me well but the clubs I have trained at in the KUGB have started to leave out kumite which has annoyed me somewhat now.

[sensei8]

(apologies for the following essay, my passion for Kyokushin will come out and my annoyance at the misconceptions and misunderstanding many people have about Kyokushin will drive me here)

If you walk into a Kyokushin dojo take a little time to study the students as they train you will see things you recognize!

(Kata - kihon)

Kyokushin owes much of its foundations to Shotokan!

Kyokushin is mainly famous for its approach to 'full contact' karate, we call it 'Knockdown', its done bare knuckle!

We are also famous for one of the tests we have, the 100 man kumite!

(One fighter vs one hundred other fighters)

Kyokushin karate also calls itself 'The strongest karate'......no not because we think we are super hard, but because we exercise a great deal, much of a session in many dojos is dedicated to pushups, situps and so on! we exercise more than we fight in many instances!

We spar/fight as often as we can, and we take fighting extremely serious.

We do work the mind as much we fight, honestly we do, just take the time to understand/study with us to see the evidence.

Many look to our kata and say simple, not hard at all, easy katas, not so.

Sosai Oyama, selected kata for his karate (Kyokushin) with a simple logic if it worked to support his teachings, his karate, he used it, else it was dropped.

Example:

We have a kata called; Kanku dai - it translates to mean 'To Look To The Sky (Major)'.

There is a second kata to accompany this kata called: Kanku sho - it means 'To view the sky minor'

Both are in Shotokan.

The Kanku Sho kata is not in the our training syllabus!

(We used to many years ago, but Sosai removed it as unnecessary to Kyokushin.)

We do have a different mind set to many fighting arts, but then many other arts have different mind sets to other arts as well.

Our 'mind set' comes directly from Sosai Oyama, the best example of this mind set is in our systems name.

Kyokushinkai - the society of the ultimate truth.

Our philosophy is self-improvement, discipline and hard training, look at my signature for another example.

We train hard which is great, but honestly take a look at other systems, our philosophy sounds much the same as any other school.

Take your time, and when you decide to join in a session, seriously, do so from a beginners perspective, you'll be glad you did.!!

A very solid post!! Thank you for it!!

[pers]

(apologies for the following essay, my passion for Kyokushin will come out and my annoyance at the misconceptions and misunderstanding many people have about Kyokushin will drive me here)

If you walk into a Kyokushin dojo take a little time to study the students as they train you will see things you recognize!

(Kata - kihon)

Kyokushin owes much of its foundations to Shotokan!

Kyokushin is mainly famous for its approach to 'full contact' karate, we call it 'Knockdown', its done bare knuckle!

We are also famous for one of the tests we have, the 100 man kumite!

(One fighter vs one hundred other fighters)

Kyokushin karate also calls itself 'The strongest karate'......no not because we think we

are super hard, but because we exercise a great deal, much of a session in many dojos is dedicated to pushups, situps and so on! we exercise more than we fight in many instances!

We spar/fight as often as we can, and we take fighting extremely serious.

We do work the mind as much we fight, honestly we do, just take the time to understand/study with us to see the evidence.

Many look to our kata and say simple, not hard at all, easy katas, not so.

Sosai Oyama, selected kata for his karate (Kyokushin) with a simple logic if it worked to support his teachings, his karate, he used it, else it was dropped.

Example:

We have a kata called; Kanku dai - it translates to mean 'To Look To The Sky (Major)'.

There is a second kata to accompany this kata called: Kanku sho - it means 'To view the sky minor'

Both are in Shotokan.

The Kanku Sho kata is not in the our training syllabus!

(We used to many years ago, but Sosai removed it as unnecessary to Kyokushin.)

We do have a different mind set to many fighting arts, but then many other arts have different mind sets to other arts as well.

Our 'mind set' comes directly from Sosai Oyama, the best example of this mind set is in our systems name.

Kyokushinkai - the society of the ultimate truth.

Our philosophy is self-improvement, discipline and hard training, look at my signature for another example.

We train hard which is great, but honestly take a look at other systems, our philosophy sounds much the same as any other school.

Take your time, and when you decide to join in a session, seriously, do so from a beginners perspective, you'll be glad you did.!!

If by strongest karate you mean spending a lo.g time in a karate class to do pushand sit ups then why not go to a gym and get fit ?!

as our sensei used to say to us " we are here to train karate and you taking the concepts and ideas and train in them , you do the physical conditionig in your own time ! " we did a good warm up first for like 10 minutes and then it was all karate and technical and tactical aspects of kihon, kata and kumite . so much emphasis in mastering how to move , when to move and mastering techniques , improving speed and efietioncy as we regard speed a.d effuciency as power and not how much you can lift or how many sit ups you can do .

[Hawkmoon]

@ Pers, the short answer is a jodam mawashi in a gym tends to get you banned!

Lol

@ Muttley I'm not saying defect but have a look around find a Kyokushin dojo, have a go.

The worst that can happen is you find its not for you!

[yamesu]

If by strongest karate you mean spending a lo.g time in a karate class to do pushand sit ups then why not go to a gym and get fit ?!

as our sensei used to say to us " we are here to train karate and you taking the concepts and ideas and train in them , you do the physical conditionig in your own time ! " we did a good warm up first for like 10 minutes and then it was all karate and technical and tactical aspects of kihon, kata and kumite . so much emphasis in mastering how to move , when to move and mastering techniques , improving speed and efietioncy as we regard speed a.d effuciency as power and not how much you can lift or how many sit ups you can do .

I agree with your sentiment, and my Shihan has siad the same thing on several occasions to the effect that "I can teach you technique, but fitness and endurance must also be trained in yoru own time". There is only so much that can be achieved in 2-3 2hour lessons a week!

This is why you will find that a lot of serious Kyokushin practitioners train hard 5-6 days a week in and out of the dojo.

Its not just general fitness so-to-speak (though yes, pushups and sit ups are involved).

I have been in numerous 2 hour Kyokushin classes where we will routinely drill over 1000 kicks. So much so to the point that the body wants to give up, but the mind must push on!

This to me is Kyokushin, the Ultimate Truth, and it has helped me through every aspect of my life. It has taught me that the mind controls ones reality.

I have trained several other styles including Judo, Arnis and Muay Thai, and while they are all great arts that I thoroughly enjoyed, none of them gave me what Kyokushin has given me.

It is the same with the 20/40/50/100 man kumite. It does not matter how fit or strong someone is. There will come a point where the body wants to give up, and you must make the mind push on to gain accomplishment.

This is an important lesson, and to me, represents enlightenment to a degree. We are not the body or even just the mind. We are the will that drives the mind and body.

[pers]

If by strongest karate you mean spending a lo.g time in a karate class to do pushand sit ups then why not go to a gym and get fit ?!

as our sensei used to say to us " we are here to train karate and you taking the concepts and ideas and train in them , you do the physical conditionig in your own time ! " we did a good warm up first for like 10 minutes and then it was all karate and technical and tactical aspects of kihon, kata and kumite . so much emphasis in mastering how to move , when to move and mastering techniques , improving speed and efietioncy as we regard speed a.d effuciency as power and not how much you can lift or how many sit ups you can do .

I agree with your sentiment, and my Shihan has siad the same thing on several occasions to the effect that "I can teach you technique, but fitness and endurance must also be trained in yoru own time". There is only so much that can be achieved in 2-3 2hour lessons a week!

This is why you will find that a lot of serious Kyokushin practitioners train hard 5-6 days a week in and out of the dojo.

Its not just general fitness so-to-speak (though yes, pushups and sit ups are involved).

I have been in numerous 2 hour Kyokushin classes where we will routinely drill over 1000 kicks. So much so to the point that the body wants to give up, but the mind must push on!

This to me is Kyokushin, the Ultimate Truth, and it has helped me through every aspect of my life. It has taught me that the mind controls ones reality.

I have trained several other styles including Judo, Arnis and Muay Thai, and while they are all great arts that I thoroughly enjoyed, none of them gave me what Kyokushin has given me.

It is the same with the 20/40/50/100 man kumite. It does not matter how fit or strong someone is. There will come a point where the body wants to give up, and you must make the mind push on to gain accomplishment.

This is an important lesson, and to me, represents enlightenment to a degree. We are not the body or even just the mind. We are the will that drives the mind and body.

Don't get me wrong , I am not having a go at any style in particular but at those karate clubs in whatever style that put heavy emphasis on physical conditioning like doing 100s of push ups etc.

To me that is the sign of limited knowledge of the instructors in karate that they try to compensate by running a club like a boot camp .

[Hawkmoon]

If by strongest karate you mean spending a lo.g time in a karate class to do pushand sit ups then why not go to a gym and get fit ?!

as our sensei used to say to us " we are here to train karate and you taking the concepts and ideas and train in them , you do the physical conditionig in your own time !.....

..... we regard speed a.d effuciency as power and not how much you can lift or how many sit ups you can do .

I agree with your sentiment, and my Shihan has siad the same thing on several occasions to the effect that "I can teach you technique, but fitness and endurance must also be trained in yoru own time". There is only so much that can be achieved in 2-3 2hour lessons a week!

This is why you will find that a lot of serious Kyokushin practitioners train hard 5-6 days a week in and out of the dojo.

Its not just general fitness so-to-speak (though yes, pushups and sit ups are involved).

I have been in numerous 2 hour Kyokushin classes where we will routinely drill over 1000 kicks. So much so to the point that the body wants to give up, but the mind must push on!........

......

It is the same with the 20/40/50/100 man kumite. It does not matter how fit or strong someone is. There will come a point where the body wants to give up, and you must make the mind push on to gain accomplishment.

This is an important lesson, and to me, represents enlightenment to a degree. We are not the body or even just the mind. We are the will that drives the mind and body.

its all good, were cool!

No worries!

A debate I'm happy to have!

So two views, one is completely understood, the other, I surprise surprise agree with!

Its as much to do with mind set as it is mental strength! as I said earlier, there is more to Kyokushin, we train our minds as hard as we train our bodies!

Yes, absolutely anyone can do pushups or squats in the front room or bedroom, but then by that logic in truth there is nothing...nothing at all you do in the dojo you cannot do in the comfort of your home or garden.

To me this is where it goes wrong...

whats the gauge?

Whats the target to beat?

Who is pushing you to push harder?

You?

Really so who/what/when was your mind strong enough to say beat me?

Who made that judgement etc etc...

Competition in the dojo (we have all said it in this thread) and tournaments are what we use to test are metal, our minds, our body our skill...can you really do that in your bedroom?

I think not.

Kyokushin works hard on the body, then when it screams stop, we do more, (ie The mind component). What pushes the mind?

Sensei, the other student, the person in front of you that has just hit you for the ninth time in the same spot......

(a quick return to my first post here:

(.... my passion for Kyokushin will come out and my annoyance at the misconceptions and misunderstanding many people have about Kyokushin will drive me here) ....

..

.....

.... We spar/fight as often as we can, and we take fighting extremely serious.

We do work the mind as much we fight, ....... just take the time to understand/study with us to see the evidence.

"...we take fighting extremely serious" is the single aim of all the training yours or mine, we like to think we take this view more deliberately than others.

Like anyone we train for this single aim, something that Sosai personally made sure, went out of his way made sure was engrained in every single one of his students!

Sosai Oyama originally created the 100 man Kumite test was a test for prospects to take as part of the Shihan (5th dan) promotion.

If they past they were awarded the rank Shihan, This translates as expert or senior instructor (some suggest master).

As a test it was/is so hard many tried, most failed, so Sosai Oyama changed it from mandatory to elective.

Today it is still a test you can chose to take, many consider it, few take it, even less pass!

Visit a Kyokushin dojo, set yourself a target, 3 months say, now experience Kyokushin.

[Hawkmoon]

p.s.

Were looking for new students!

If your close enough try our dojo?

[Kuma]

Kyokushin earned the moniker "the strongest karate" not from their physical conditioning but from their kumite. There is some physical conditioning, but that is actually a traditional part of karate. Oyama was an 8th Dan in Goju Ryu, and typically a good portion of each training session from my Gonu Ryu days were focused on conditioning and strengthening the body for combat.