Kyokushin and Shotokan

[Kuma]

Something to also consider - Funakoshi was just one ambassador of karate and not everyone agreed with him. In fact, his biggest rival was Choki Motobu who was all about practical karate and fighting prowess. They had quite a colorful rivalry and it seems absolutely despised each other. So while Funakoshi does have some ideas, due to his views and "Japanese-ing" karate it may not always be true to what real karate is.

[CredoTe]

Something to also consider - Funakoshi was just one ambassador of karate and not everyone agreed with him. In fact, his biggest rival was Choki Motobu who was all about practical karate and fighting prowess. They had quite a colorful rivalry and it seems absolutely despised each other. So while Funakoshi does have some ideas, due to his views and "Japanese-ing" karate it may not always be true to what real karate is.

Great post! Choki Motobu is often overlooked and the Funakoshi-Motobu rivalry is often ignored. They were both great MAs and great forefathers. Motobu was, as you say, very passionate about Karate being a practical fighting method as it was in the days before him, and he made sure he passed on the Te (Ti). Funakoshi knew the Te (Ti) (as pretty much any karate master during those days did), but I'm not sure how much of it he passed on to the Japanese; maybe he did, I don't know. IMHO, though, many of the Karate dojos I've observed, from any style (Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, etc) are missing both the Te (Ti) and the necessary practical / hard kumite practice.

There's not much at all in the way of Kyokushin around my parts, so all my observation of it has been in the Internet. From what I've seen, IMHO (<--- not much since I can't see it live), it looks as though instead of hard Te (Ti) training with hard kumite, Kyokushin ramps the hard kumite waaay up. Again, my exposure to it is severely limited, so I don't know...

[yamesu]

There's not much at all in the way of Kyokushin around my parts, so all my observation of it has been in the Internet. From what I've seen, IMHO (<--- not much since I can't see it live), it looks as though instead of hard Te (Ti) training with hard kumite, Kyokushin ramps the hard kumite waaay up. Again, my exposure to it is severely limited, so I don't know...

You can't build a strong brick wall without good mortar.

EDIT: To fix up an issue with quotes

Edited August 28, 2013 by yamesu

[Hawkmoon]

(Sorry for the length of this post to many names and posts to 'quote', so I'll be generic, to be an easier read)

In earlier posts there are comments about how Kyokushin looks, or at the least appears.

I refer to the way Kyokushin fight and how that fighting is performed.

Then to this the comparison to Shotokan or other styles and how much effort is placed into the body be this conditioning or exercise.

There are lots of ways an MA practitioner can measure themselves or test there metal.

Kyokushin is no different we have different competitions types that we do take part in.

. WUKO/WAKO

. Clicker/Continuous

. Knockdown/Full Contact.

WUKO/WAKO.

most of us understand and attend through the year.

Fighting for points having the fight stopped and the point awarded.

the key is speed etc etc.

Nothing wrong with this, nothing wrong with this at all.

Clicker/Continuous

A bout without stops unless a rule was infringed or an injury received.

They are for 3 mins as a rule, the judges have 'counters' (clickers) and count strikes that score. More strickes more points better chance of the win being awarded to you.

Knockdown/Full Contact.

Like clicker but minus pads, bare knuckle also over 3 mins, the name knockdown states clearly the idea and point of the bout!

No matter what the name or type of the contest we all do the same, Kyokushin, Shotokan, Wadu-Ryu etc etc.

What makes Kyokushin different, is as I mentioned before we take to fighting with a more deliberate approach. We see knockdown as the point of all the training the bar we strive to reach.

Sadly like any art or tournament there are good fighters and bad fighters, watch videos go to any tournament and see it first hand, some fights are great.

Fighters move around, duck weave block attack in fluid smooth attacks and defense!

Some appear stiff, and 'pow' an explosion of movement clear attack all crisp and sweet!

Then there is the other end of the spectrum.

Fighters who shuffle towards each other and trade blows, slug it out.

Fighters that allow themselves to be hit, take the strikes not block and trade blows.

No style no finesse no art.

Not all win, yet they carry on in this way as if machines.

A nice you-tube video to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C9SnOhEmiQ

Enjoy!

Edited August 29, 2013 by Hawkmoon

[CredoTe]

Something to also consider - Funakoshi was just one ambassador of karate and not everyone agreed with him. In fact, his biggest rival was Choki Motobu who was all about practical karate and fighting prowess. They had quite a colorful rivalry and it seems absolutely despised each other. So while Funakoshi does have some ideas, due to his views and "Japanese-ing" karate it may not always be true to what real karate is.

...

There's not much at all in the way of Kyokushin around my parts, so all my observation of it has been in the Internet. From what I've seen, IMHO (<--- not much since I can't see it live), it looks as though instead of hard Te (Ti) training with hard kumite, Kyokushin ramps the hard kumite waaay up. Again, my exposure to it is severely limited, so I don't know...

You can't build a strong brick wall without good mortar.

I totally agree BTW, I'm not being critical of Kyokushin regarding my observation of ramping up hard kumite... My limited observation is that that's how I see Kyokushin's training method for preparing good fighters.... It's certainly an effective way of training!

[yamesu]

No Problems I didnt see it as critical, but my comment was more aimed at the fact that the hard kumite aspect cannot come without a strong foundation in the basics of karate first (kihon for example).

Not all knockdown fighters have this foundation, but thats more likely where they become (as Hawkmoon put it) the machines who "slug it out".

While this may prove toughness, it certainly does nothing for real karate or self defense (think being attacked with a weapon....)

Just playing devils advocate here.

Irrespective of the style, the three "K's" always underly training. Kihon, Kata, Kumite.

It just so happens that in Kyokushin the kumite aspect is what has made the style so famous over the decades.

[CredoTe]

No Problems I didnt see it as critical, but my comment was more aimed at the fact that the hard kumite aspect cannot come without a strong foundation in the basics of karate first (kihon for example).

Ah... OK! Thanks for the clarification I agree with you on this, as well.

Not all knockdown fighters have this foundation, but thats more likely where they become (as Hawkmoon put it) the machines who "slug it out".

While this may prove toughness, it certainly does nothing for real karate or self defense (think being attacked with a weapon....)

Just playing devils advocate here.

A few of the videos I've seen of Kyokushin matches show the competitors just wailing on each other with punches without any attempt or regard for checking, blocking, or evading... But not the majority. Does this reflect a correct ratio of the "sluggers" you mentioned versus those Kyokushin-ka that do?

Irrespective of the style, the three "K's" always underly training. Kihon, Kata, Kumite. It just so happens that in Kyokushin the kumite aspect is what has made the style so famous over the decades.

Absolutely... the three "K's" are the "Triforce" of Karate, regardless of style / branch. If there were a Kyokushin dojo in my area, I would consider taking it, if only to learn how to improve my dojo's kumite practice.

[Hawkmoon]

question CredoTe

Are there any 'shinkyokushin', Oyama karate schools nearby?

I get that Ohio is a big state, but maybe other readers may find this helpful;

http://www.us-shoshinkarate.com/

http://www.uskyokushin.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUEw2RoWkSM

[sensei8]

(Sorry for the length of this post to many names and posts to 'quote', so I'll be generic, to be an easier read)

In earlier posts there are comments about how Kyokushin looks, or at the least appears.

I refer to the way Kyokushin fight and how that fighting is performed.

Then to this the comparison to Shotokan or other styles and how much effort is placed into the body be this conditioning or exercise.

There are lots of ways an MA practitioner can measure themselves or test there metal.

Kyokushin is no different we have different competitions types that we do take part in.

. WUKO/WAKO

. Clicker/Continuous

. Knockdown/Full Contact.

WUKO/WAKO.

most of us understand and attend through the year.

Fighting for points having the fight stopped and the point awarded.

the key is speed etc etc.

Nothing wrong with this, nothing wrong with this at all.

Clicker/Continuous

A bout without stops unless a rule was infringed or an injury received.

They are for 3 mins as a rule, the judges have 'counters' (clickers) and count strikes that score. More strickes more points better chance of the win being awarded to you.

Knockdown/Full Contact.

Like clicker but minus pads, bare knuckle also over 3 mins, the name knockdown states clearly the idea and point of the bout!

No matter what the name or type of the contest we all do the same, Kyokushin, Shotokan, Wadu-Ryu etc etc.

What makes Kyokushin different, is as I mentioned before we take to fighting with a more deliberate approach. We see knockdown as the point of all the training the bar we strive to reach.

Sadly like any art or tournament there are good fighters and bad fighters, watch videos go to any tournament and see it first hand, some fights are great.

Fighters move around, duck weave block attack in fluid smooth attacks and defense!

Some appear stiff, and 'pow' an explosion of movement clear attack all crisp and sweet!

Then there is the other end of the spectrum.

Fighters who shuffle towards each other and trade blows, slug it out.

Fighters that allow themselves to be hit, take the strikes not block and trade blows.

No style no finesse no art.

Not all win, yet they carry on in this way as if machines.

A nice you-tube video to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C9SnOhEmiQ

Enjoy!

Soilid post!!

[CredoTe]

question CredoTe

Are there any 'shinkyokushin', Oyama karate schools nearby?

I get that Ohio is a big state, but maybe other readers may find this helpful;

http://www.us-shoshinkarate.com/

http://www.uskyokushin.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUEw2RoWkSM

Good question.... I don't know But I'll find out and get back to you. Thanks for the links, I'll use them to start my search.