Kyokushin and Shotokan

[pers]

That's funny because I read in an interview that oyama trained under kase in those early years . that is what kase said himself !

I tend to believe him ...

I can't seem to find any link for that. Everything I see is pretty much what I shared. He earned his shodan around the same time Oyama began training there, so I'm sure he did have some input into Oyama's training. There's a lot of accounts saying he later went to learn under Oyama too, so I'm sure there's some truth to both.

http://www.dynamic-karate.com/karate-legends-taiji-kase.html

talking about realistic contact , kyukoshin fighting method is far from realistic contact , to me it looks like two powerful men standing face to face and exchanging blows without paying much attention to defence .

Shotokan is about moving in and out of range , simply to hit and not to get hit .

Shotokan techniques when mastered are devastatingly effective and could do serious damage so it needs to be a controlled contact specially to the head in competitions .

We've had this conversation before. Personally when I watch Shotokan matches I feel they are far too linear and rigid compared to other systems which do engage in full contact fighting.

As for the comments about the style, Kyokushin fighters each develop their own individual styles much like any other fighting art so there is no one style that fits all fighters. A fighter like Hajime Kazumi will use footwork and counterattacks, combining powerful punches with just low kicks and foot sweeps. You'll also have a fighter like Kenji Midori, who due to his smaller stature relies on his fast high roundhouse kicks and footwork to take out his opponents. You will have your power fighters who are ultra aggressive and relentless, like Makoto Nakamura or Hiroki Kurosawa for example. They are always moving forward and attacking, never giving any ground. You may also have a fighter like Norichika Tsukamoto, who fights primarily from the outside and hardly every punches yet has an impressive array of kicks he uses very effectively. Just like in boxing, there is no one style of fighting in Kyokushin. Heck, in a previous thread, you actually thought a Kyokushin fighter was Shotokan so you can't even tell the difference yourself between the two.

As for the techniques - a lot of arts say that they are so powerful they will seriously hurt an opponent, yet reality is far different from fantasy. Oyama didn't believe that either, hence why he wanted to train full contact. Initially they allowed bare knuckle blows to the head, but for a number of reasons (specifically, illegal prizefighting laws forbidding bare knuckle fighting in Japan, as well as students having to go to work with busted mugs, black eyes, and missing teeth) Oyama decided to take away head punches to keep the fighting as karate. If he added gloves, Oyama thought, it would just become like kickboxing which he didn't want.

Knockdown fighting is popular, so it still sticks around as a tournament format. Many Kyokushin organizations are moving back to the old ways though of utilizing head strikes (with light gloves) and have for over a decade now. Oyama actually wanted to change the rules to be a more realistic fight and had one of his students, Takashi Azuma, come up with a more realistic ruleset. Once Azuma presented it to Oyama, Oyama liked it but knockdown fighting had grown so popular he couldn't change it so with Oyama's permission Azuma went off on his own, forming Daido Juku Kudo.

Knockdown fighting may not be as realistic as a real fight, but it's certainly more realistic than the sophisticated game of tag many karate styles play now. If you can lose a match for excessive contact, it's definitely not being realistic. Add in the stop and start every time a point is scored, and it's now a game, not fighting. It's going to develop bad habits that is going to carry over into your karate, and pulling your punches or kicks when fighting for your own survival doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

shotokan techniques are about speed of execution with correct coordination of body parts involved in the delivery of technique ,that is the reason they spend a long time mastering techniques , how to move forward and back and side ways in a most efficient way .

I think this would apply to any karate style, not just Shotokan.

the faster the more powerful the technique delivered , rather than relying on muscle mass and heavy pounding which seems to be the kyukoshin concept.

the difference is here in this Newton formula mass x velocity = power

Shotokan works on more speed while kyokoshin works on mass to produce power .

Kyokushin is karate, and shares the same basic principles as any other karate style. If size was all that matters, then how did the renown Kyokushin fighter Kenji Midori, who weighed under 70kg, routinely drop fighters much heavier than him with his powerful strikes?

I think his kicks are pretty darn quick in this video:

You seem to have a bone to pick with Kyokushin for some reason, pers, even to the point of starting threads to degrade it. Insecurity maybe?

Kuma , I have no problems with kyukoshin karate and respect all who train in them , I am only picking on what you came of with kyukoshin is the strongest karate , I am not saying kyokoshin is not good but I was expressing opinion and experience to say I think Shotokan is more effective and realistic , now why would that be a sign of insecurity ?!

I have seen many strong fighters in kyokoshin karate , there amny in Shotokan and other styles too , for all of those guys faith might have sent them to a different school of karate and they would still be a champion , they carry that talent with them before they ever step in a dojo .

we are talking about average joe who trains in karate , a martial art for self defence who may save you from trouble on day even if you 70 years old , then maybe speed in thinking and deciding the best action supercedes the speed of much younger and fitter opponent , economy of motion and speed in expansion and contraction and knowing where to be and when to be , not a fantacy dude but science of Shotokan karate .

Ippon is the ultimate aim of Shotokan , be it with one technique or more until it is achieved .

[Kuma]

No matter which one is a practitioner of, either of them are ONLY effective if the practitioner CAN be effective with what they've been taught by their sensei. The word "style" means just that: it's a particular kind or sort or type, in that, its not defining of said practitioner, imho.

And this I agree with 100%. To me it is not the style that makes an effective fighter, it is the training methods used. There are many methods out there that work wonderfully, but there are also many methods out there that instill false confidence and can develop bad habits. Getting comfortable fighting from an unrealistic range, modifying techniques for tournament scoring purposes, lack of pressure from your partner, and so on.

[Kuma]

Kuma , I have no problems with kyukoshin karate and respect all who train in them , I am only picking on what you came of with kyukoshin is the strongest karate , I am not saying kyokoshin is not good but I was expressing opinion and experience to say I think Shotokan is more effective and realistic , now why would that be a sign of insecurity ?!

I have seen many strong fighters in kyokoshin karate , there amny in Shotokan and other styles too , for all of those guys faith might have sent them to a different school of karate and they would still be a champion , they carry that talent with them before they ever step in a dojo .

we are talking about average joe who trains in karate , a martial art for self defence who may save you from trouble on day even if you 70 years old , then maybe speed in thinking and deciding the best action supercedes the speed of much younger and fitter opponent , economy of motion and speed in expansion and contraction and knowing where to be and when to be , not a fantacy dude but science of Shotokan karate .

Ippon is the ultimate aim of Shotokan , be it with one technique or more until it is achieved .

And everything you say applies to all karate, not just Shotokan. Sosai Oyama was a big believer in ichi geki hissatsu, winning many of his challenge matches over the years with just one punch. You're focused too much on the competition side of an art, not the art as a whole.

Oyama continued training and sparring on a regular basis into his late 60s before his death. Sensei Liliane Pierron just recently earned her 4th dan at the age of 83, which included a kumite requirement. My own instructor is in his 70s and is right there with us banging away every time we get to train together. Just because younger men and women like to compete doesn't mean it's inapplicable for everyone. If that were so, Judo would not be good for older folk either but between my two main Judo instructors alone they have over 100 years in Judo and aren't slowing down.

[pers]

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everything you say applies to all karate, not just Shotokan. Sosai Oyama was a big believer in ichi geki hissatsu, winning many of his challenge matches over the years with just one punch. You're focused too much on the competition side of an art, not the art as a whole.

If that is your idea then why do you come up with the statement claiming kyukoshin is the strongest karate ?

when you make such a big claim then people here from other styles would question it .

and it seems you don't read my posts properly , I am focused on martial arts side of karate and not on competition side .

competition is a small part of karate , that's why I brought the average joe into discussion so you know what I am trying to point out .

[yamesu]

I think this is where Kuma noted the analogy to Ali as the King of Boxers so-to-speak.

Anyone can claim anything, heck, just this morning I flew to the moon and had tea with the mad hatter.

But the fact is that Kyokushin has been touted as the Strongest Karate for decades now. Furthermore, it has proven its mettle over the years with a number of other styles.

How many karateka do you see taking on bona-fide (Im talking from thailand, not western wanna-be's) Muay Thai fighters at their own game and surviving let alone winning?

Thats just it. Kyokushin has a style of conditioning, and a fighting mentality that allows people to take karate to new heights and compare it on a full contact stage to other arts.

GSP has effectively utilised his Kyokushin background (along with other training) in the UFC for many many years to become the most successful UFC individual in the history of the competition.

Is Kyokushin better than any other styles? Maybe, maybe not.

Has it proven itself to be different to other karate styles? Yes.

Has it proven to be more effective in full contact competition? For the most part, yes.

This, I believe, comes from Oyama's will to make the art like it was intended to be many many moons ago. If the Okinawan people practiced point sparring they would have had no chance against the invading Japanese. The fact is they practiced HARD.

Shotokan is a very strong art coming from very strong roots, and with the right mentality is, IMO, very effective. But the general consensus nowdays is that it is based around point sparring matches, and the truth is, a lot of practitioners do train for that.

On the flip-side, Ive seen guys who claim to be seasoned MA's get dropped very quickly in real situations because they dont have the right mentality or training behind them.

Ive not seen many altercations where any one party gets out without being hit at least once.

If we are training for self-defence, then we must learn to react under pressure, and after being hit.

[Kuma]

Great post yamesu.

Oh and pers you're confusing me with Hawkmoon.

If you really want to get technical, karate isn't really a martial art either but that's for another day.

[pers]

Great post yamesu.

Oh and pers you're confusing me with Hawkmoon.

If you really want to get technical, karate isn't really a martial art either but that's for another day.

How is karate not a martial art ?

[Kuma]

Karate is a civilian self defense system and was not designed for military use. So technically it's not a martial art.

Iain Abernethy agrees:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/karate-not-martial-art

[pers]

Karate is a civilian self defense system and was not designed for military use. So technically it's not a martial art.

Iain Abernethy agrees:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/karate-not-martial-art

If you want to put it like that it's fine by me , as long as it is a mean to an end and seves it's purpose .

Karate has as many applications as you want it to be , it can be a great aid to any sport , it helped me tremendously in soccer , I played as goalkeeper since I was 8 years old ! until I started karate at around 25 and I stopped playing football and did karate for about 7-8 years before I went back to playing football again , I never thought I be as good as I was before but infact I think roughly speaking my game had improved by %50 .

It was like I had the idea and experience of the game and now I had more control over my body to be where I needed to be and get there much faster than I ever could when I was much younger and playing league football !

there were few instances that I like to share with you and they bring back good memories !

I once almost scored a goal with a ushiro geri ! there was this low cross from a corner and I hit the ball cleanly and firmly with the sole of my boot ,the ball went towards the goal but a defender blocked it and in return and a team mate put the ball in the back of the net .

Another time I scored a goal with a kukustu dachi ! what happened was I was in a good position inside the box with the goal to my left and shouting at a team mate to pass the ball to me , but he was in a shooting mood himself and he took a firm shot to score but the ball was off target and came towards me in speed , I just lined my right foot with the ball and went into a kukutsu dachi with my right foot directing the ball towards the goal , the ball hit my right foot which was my front foot and flew like a bullet by the side of the keeper and into the goal !

another great gift karate gave me in football was how good my left foot had become ! it was like I could always play with my left foot which in fact I couldn't before ! my control and precision to my own surprise had improved immensely.

by the way in the park games I used to play one halftime in goal and the other half upfront as a striker , I never managed to score with a powerful mawashi geri hitting the ball into the goal but I came quite close a few times ,hitting the ball over the post or to the sides .

I accidentally knocked out a player once when I turned behind to hit a ball at head hight with a mawashigeri , unfortunately he had already headed the ball and I got his head instead !

karate is very useful in military and it is vastly used around the world in the military and police forces .

I always say this and can't say it enough , it is not the style but the ability of the instructor as a karateka and a teacher that counts not the style .

[Hawkmoon]

confused with me...nah nah! I don't play with a full deck of cards!

(There are a few jokers in my deck!)

What Kuma said about 'strongest karate' is correct, it is the why I made a clear break form the comment in what I said, it is (to me) why many people are confused about Kyokushin.

What Kuma and I say is 100% true.

What I said .... I wanted to break the misconception people have etc etc.

Please remember I said in my fist post:

"annoyance, misconceptions, misunderstanding..."

People see the phrase "strongest karate" with that explanation and many see/think bully, thug, and so on, and it is simply not true.

Look over the thread and what I offer, I make some deliberate comments about how to look at Kyokushin to play down the bully, thug view many have.

I strongly believe once you or anyone has had a go at Kyokushin (hence I said previously give yourself 3 months) what and how we do things will be better understood.

Sosai Oyama & Hanshi Arneil today still hold true to the 'simple' approach to training, self improvement, discipline the mental strength (mind set.!)

When I first started karate, I had no idea there were different styles, to me they were all the same... a group of people in baggy white 'pjs' making funny sounds jumping around!

I had no idea I had walked into one of the harder (by work rate etc) systems available to the western world at that time!

My sensei at that time encouraged me to visit other clubs as he invited other clubs to come train with us. I later realized this was his way of pushing/promoting the 'strongest karate' mind set as it was something Sosai had promoted!

(I've hinted at this in other threads I have posted on here in this forum)

We picked up more students than we lost and I for one learned respect for the other systems, and a quick eye to spot 'We-Con-You' systems.

(Sadly in my years I have come across many who have developed a 'callous' of tolerance rather than respect of other systems, which I feel is wrong, but is why we have different systems today....)

The history that is kyokushin, comes form Shotokan, and Judo as well as an extremely large dose of self discipline.

It is not difficult, nor complex, it only stems back as far as 1923 after all, yet it is one of more demanding and rewarding systems you can experience today!

Seriously please have a go see what think?