Kyokushin and Shotokan

[pers]

Kyokushin earned the moniker "the strongest karate" not from their physical conditioning but from their kumite. There is some physical conditioning, but that is actually a traditional part of karate. Oyama was an 8th Dan in Goju Ryu, and typically a good portion of each training session from my Gonu Ryu days were focused on conditioning and strengthening the body for combat.

sorry but earned that term from who ? by all means call it the strongest karate if you like but there are many other stylist who don't agree with you .

I say Shotokan is the strongest karate but I am sure you and other stylist like wado ryu or goju ryu or shorin ryu don't agree with me ...

[Kuma]

Oyama first began advertising Kyokushinkai as the strongest karate in the late 1950s and accepted all challengers to come prove them otherwise. They had many takers as it was a bold challenge, but no outside student ever won. In fact, virtually all challengers ended up as Oyama's students afterwards. For the time and in most ways it still has some of the most realistic karate training methods out there. It's definitely better than the point fighting formats which are about as close to a real fight as a tickling match.

[pers]

Oyama first began advertising Kyokushinkai as the strongest karate in the late 1950s and accepted all challengers to come prove them otherwise. They had many takers as it was a bold challenge, but no outside student ever won. In fact, virtually all challengers ended up as Oyama's students afterwards. For the time and in most ways it still has some of the most realistic karate training methods out there. It's definitely better than the point fighting formats which are about as close to a real fight as a tickling match.

Oyama himself was a student of Kase of Shotokan who later became chief instructor of JKA in France .

Now depends who meet who , to blantly say kyukoshin is the strongest because oyama said so and no body could beat him out of those who challenged him is a bit far stretched .

Need to think outside that bubble .

[Kuma]

Actually Oyama was a student of Funakoshi, earning his nidan under him. Oyama and Kase were students together at roughly the same time. Years later, Kase and the legendary Judoka Masahiko Kimura briefly trained under Oyama for a time.

Funakoshi was actually quite disapproving of Oyama's concept of jissen kumite, and it was the lack of realistic contact in training that made Oyama want more.

As for the title, Muhammad Ali claimed he was the greatest and beat just about everyone he faced. Regardless of whether he really was or not, he's still considered the greatest.

[yamesu]

If by strongest karate you mean spending a lo.g time in a karate class to do pushand sit ups then why not go to a gym and get fit ?!

as our sensei used to say to us " we are here to train karate and you taking the concepts and ideas and train in them , you do the physical conditionig in your own time ! " we did a good warm up first for like 10 minutes and then it was all karate and technical and tactical aspects of kihon, kata and kumite . so much emphasis in mastering how to move , when to move and mastering techniques , improving speed and efietioncy as we regard speed a.d effuciency as power and not how much you can lift or how many sit ups you can do .

I agree with your sentiment, and my Shihan has siad the same thing on several occasions to the effect that "I can teach you technique, but fitness and endurance must also be trained in yoru own time". There is only so much that can be achieved in 2-3 2hour lessons a week!

This is why you will find that a lot of serious Kyokushin practitioners train hard 5-6 days a week in and out of the dojo.

Its not just general fitness so-to-speak (though yes, pushups and sit ups are involved).

I have been in numerous 2 hour Kyokushin classes where we will routinely drill over 1000 kicks. So much so to the point that the body wants to give up, but the mind must push on!

This to me is Kyokushin, the Ultimate Truth, and it has helped me through every aspect of my life. It has taught me that the mind controls ones reality.

I have trained several other styles including Judo, Arnis and Muay Thai, and while they are all great arts that I thoroughly enjoyed, none of them gave me what Kyokushin has given me.

It is the same with the 20/40/50/100 man kumite. It does not matter how fit or strong someone is. There will come a point where the body wants to give up, and you must make the mind push on to gain accomplishment.

This is an important lesson, and to me, represents enlightenment to a degree. We are not the body or even just the mind. We are the will that drives the mind and body.

Don't get me wrong , I am not having a go at any style in particular but at those karate clubs in whatever style that put heavy emphasis on physical conditioning like doing 100s of push ups etc.

To me that is the sign of limited knowledge of the instructors in karate that they try to compensate by running a club like a boot camp .

No Offence taken or intended from my end either, just noting my personal experiences.

It may be worth taking a few Kyokushin classes to tread the waters so-to-speak? I know that my experience with other styles has certainyl helped me review exactly what I want to gain long-term from the Martial Arts.

There is a big fitness component in Kyokushin, but there are also dojos which pride themselves on the finer points of Karate.

In my current dojo we cannot grade into or past senior kyu (let alone as yudansha) without thorough knowledge of bunkai for the relevant kata to that particular level.

There is a level at which people will not last however. I have personally seen a number of people walk in touting Black Belts from a number of other styles and not been able to make it through the first half hour of the general all-grades lesson due to lacking fitness. On the flipside, we have had people come in who are from other styles (Shotokan as one example) and teach us all something new.

This, however, brings me to another point - I find it quite disappointing that any style will allow a 20 year old (compense given for more experienced persons ) to grade to shodan or above without a good level of fitness. I cant believe how many people these days can rock up to one class a week for a couple of years, eat junk food and sit at a computer or in front of the TV for the rest of their time, be overweight and lethargic, and still call themselves Martial Artists.

Its a disgrace to all of us who actually train hard, and screams McDojo.

To me this exemplifies why the fitness/conditioning component is important.

[Hawkmoon]

I was going to post using a large 'quote' of the above posts and re-quotes as much of the above (95% of it) I completely agree with.

However, as that would make reading a pain, I'll say i agree with the above I will repeat a point and stress its truly the only way to understand 'us' in the Kyokushin world is to experience the Kyokushin way!

Find a Dojo, train with us learn/study with us, have a look at this URL (page) it lists all the Dojos in the UK.

- http://www.bkk-uk.com/EnglandDojos.asp

(Click the dojo link in the top bar and it will offer other IFK dojo locations around the world.)

I am aware there are some IKO dojos around, mostly in the North of the UK, Leeds, and so, but I've no full list for them, sorry.

FYI:

An Sosai Oyama history page!

http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/en/home/masoyama.htm

A nice read, enjoy!

[CredoTe]

I don't really have a dog in this hunt either way, so the only thing I can toss my 2 cents at is this:

...

This, however, brings me to another point - I find it quite disappointing that any style will allow a 20 year old (compense given for more experienced persons ) to grade to shodan or above without a good level of fitness. I cant believe how many people these days can rock up to one class a week for a couple of years, eat junk food and sit at a computer or in front of the TV for the rest of their time, be overweight and lethargic, and still call themselves Martial Artists.

Its a disgrace to all of us who actually train hard, and screams McDojo.

To me this exemplifies why the fitness/conditioning component is important.

SPOT ON While I can't say whether our workouts are as hard as Kyokushin (most likely not, that's not what we're training for), we do train hard. We do a solid warm up, followed with hard strength training and Core development. Then, the rest of our hard workout is incorporated within the Karate training we do. We do this for many of the same reasons you guys have mentioned: to push our students to the mental edge, to force them to confront themselves, to make them better, and, quite frankly, for many of them, our classes are the only time they get exercise. We only have a couple of "overweight" students, so the rest of them are of the kind that simply don't exercise at home.

Moreover, to drive the point home to our students, we never make the students do an exercise we instructors cannot perform; and, more so, we must be able to perform the exercise better than they. Many new students come into our dojo and look at me, and think "what's he doing instructing?", because I'm stocky with a boulder-belly (slight belly from a past surgery, but is rock hard, no flab). But once I show them I can do everything they do with better precision, longer endurance, etc, they don't question me anymore about that. I'm not trying to toot my horn, just to emphasize the importance of exercise and that instructors must be able to do it. IMHO, the only exception is for those much more seasoned, elderly instructors / masters that simply cannot do it because of age. In these cases, their knowledge / wisdom more than makes up for inability to perform hard exercise.

We also instruct our students to practice these things at home because they can't expect to get better by only doing them when they come to class a few hours a week. Yes, many not-so-competent instructors use exercise as filler for their lack of knowledge and ability. That's why we ensure hard workouts are infused into the technical instruction...

[pers]

Actually Oyama was a student of Funakoshi, earning his nidan under him. Oyama and Kase were students together at roughly the same time. Years later, Kase and the legendary Judoka Masahiko Kimura briefly trained under Oyama for a time.

Funakoshi was actually quite disapproving of Oyama's concept of jissen kumite, and it was the lack of realistic contact in training that made Oyama want more.

As for the title, Muhammad Ali claimed he was the greatest and beat just about everyone he faced. Regardless of whether he really was or not, he's still considered the greatest.

That's funny because I read in an interview that oyama trained under kase in those early years . that is what kase said himself !

I tend to believe him ...

Funakoshi was an old man by then so maybe that was the reason for lack of kumite in his teaching but his son and other seniors who took over were not of the same thinking .

Kase ,kanazawa ,shirae ,Enoeda were all formidable fighters and advocate that in their teaching .

talking about realistic contact , kyukoshin fighting method is far from realistic contact , to me it looks like two powerful men standing face to face and exchanging blows without paying much attention to defence .

Shotokan is about moving in and out of range , simply to hit and not to get hit .

Shotokan techniques when mastered are devastatingly effective and could do serious damage so it needs to be a controlled contact specially to the head in competitions .

shotokan techniques are about speed of execution with correct coordination of body parts involved in the delivery of technique ,that is the reason they spend a long time mastering techniques , how to move forward and back and side ways in a most efficient way .

the faster the more powerful the technique delivered , rather than relying on muscle mass and heavy pounding which seems to be the kyukoshin concept.

the difference is here in this Newton formula mass x velocity = power

Shotokan works on more speed while kyokoshin works on mass to produce power .

as a martial artist I prefare speed to mass , speed backed by correct technique has more chance of ippon than heavy mass and slower delivery .

as a martial artist are of any built ,small and short or medium built or big and heavy built .

an experienced lightweight with a small stature and maybe 60 year old in shotokan has a chance to beat a much younger and bigger opponent with speed and good technique , but in a kyokoshin way he would have had no chance in a similar situation !

[Kuma]

That's funny because I read in an interview that oyama trained under kase in those early years . that is what kase said himself !

I tend to believe him ...

I can't seem to find any link for that. Everything I see is pretty much what I shared. He earned his shodan around the same time Oyama began training there, so I'm sure he did have some input into Oyama's training. There's a lot of accounts saying he later went to learn under Oyama too, so I'm sure there's some truth to both.

http://www.dynamic-karate.com/karate-legends-taiji-kase.html

talking about realistic contact , kyukoshin fighting method is far from realistic contact , to me it looks like two powerful men standing face to face and exchanging blows without paying much attention to defence .

Shotokan is about moving in and out of range , simply to hit and not to get hit .

Shotokan techniques when mastered are devastatingly effective and could do serious damage so it needs to be a controlled contact specially to the head in competitions .

We've had this conversation before. Personally when I watch Shotokan matches I feel they are far too linear and rigid compared to other systems which do engage in full contact fighting.

As for the comments about the style, Kyokushin fighters each develop their own individual styles much like any other fighting art so there is no one style that fits all fighters. A fighter like Hajime Kazumi will use footwork and counterattacks, combining powerful punches with just low kicks and foot sweeps. You'll also have a fighter like Kenji Midori, who due to his smaller stature relies on his fast high roundhouse kicks and footwork to take out his opponents. You will have your power fighters who are ultra aggressive and relentless, like Makoto Nakamura or Hiroki Kurosawa for example. They are always moving forward and attacking, never giving any ground. You may also have a fighter like Norichika Tsukamoto, who fights primarily from the outside and hardly every punches yet has an impressive array of kicks he uses very effectively. Just like in boxing, there is no one style of fighting in Kyokushin. Heck, in a previous thread, you actually thought a Kyokushin fighter was Shotokan so you can't even tell the difference yourself between the two.

As for the techniques - a lot of arts say that they are so powerful they will seriously hurt an opponent, yet reality is far different from fantasy. Oyama didn't believe that either, hence why he wanted to train full contact. Initially they allowed bare knuckle blows to the head, but for a number of reasons (specifically, illegal prizefighting laws forbidding bare knuckle fighting in Japan, as well as students having to go to work with busted mugs, black eyes, and missing teeth) Oyama decided to take away head punches to keep the fighting as karate. If he added gloves, Oyama thought, it would just become like kickboxing which he didn't want.

Knockdown fighting is popular, so it still sticks around as a tournament format. Many Kyokushin organizations are moving back to the old ways though of utilizing head strikes (with light gloves) and have for over a decade now. Oyama actually wanted to change the rules to be a more realistic fight and had one of his students, Takashi Azuma, come up with a more realistic ruleset. Once Azuma presented it to Oyama, Oyama liked it but knockdown fighting had grown so popular he couldn't change it so with Oyama's permission Azuma went off on his own, forming Daido Juku Kudo.

Knockdown fighting may not be as realistic as a real fight, but it's certainly more realistic than the sophisticated game of tag many karate styles play now. If you can lose a match for excessive contact, it's definitely not being realistic. Add in the stop and start every time a point is scored, and it's now a game, not fighting. It's going to develop bad habits that is going to carry over into your karate, and pulling your punches or kicks when fighting for your own survival doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

shotokan techniques are about speed of execution with correct coordination of body parts involved in the delivery of technique ,that is the reason they spend a long time mastering techniques , how to move forward and back and side ways in a most efficient way .

I think this would apply to any karate style, not just Shotokan.

the faster the more powerful the technique delivered , rather than relying on muscle mass and heavy pounding which seems to be the kyukoshin concept.

the difference is here in this Newton formula mass x velocity = power

Shotokan works on more speed while kyokoshin works on mass to produce power .

Kyokushin is karate, and shares the same basic principles as any other karate style. If size was all that matters, then how did the renown Kyokushin fighter Kenji Midori, who weighed under 70kg, routinely drop fighters much heavier than him with his powerful strikes?

I think his kicks are pretty darn quick in this video:

You seem to have a bone to pick with Kyokushin for some reason, pers, even to the point of starting threads to degrade it. Insecurity maybe?

[sensei8]

No matter which one is a practitioner of, either of them are ONLY effective if the practitioner CAN be effective with what they've been taught by their sensei. The word "style" means just that: it's a particular kind or sort or type, in that, its not defining of said practitioner, imho.