My New White Belt, In My OWN Dojo..?

[sensei8]

Your CI has missed the forest because of the trees.

One is not the same as the other! Does your CI own you? Does your Ti instructor own you? Is your CI that insecure as a MA instructor? Is your CI not complete in his MA totality? I can see why you were dumbstruck speechless. Imho, your CI has lost his bearings as a MAist as well as a CI. Sheech and good grief Charlie Brown.

See I can see why his CI might be offended. I'm just postulating, but up until recently CredoTe, you were happy to wear the rank he gave you and one presumes wear it with pride? How must your CI feel if another instructor shows up on the scene, begins giving you private lessons, and you suddenly discard your belt? Perhaps he sees it as you saying that the rank he gave you is worthless or of little value and subsequently his teachings too? Might be a little slap in the face for him to suddenly have his student's valuing another instructor's teachings more than his own so much so that they say that his blackbelts are worth as much as whitebelts.

I would honestly talk with your CI and explain why you have chosen to train this way. It might even mean taking your private lessons with your Ti instructor elsewhere and off dojo premises.

I still stand behind my latest post in this thread.

What you do in YOUR dojo is your business. What you do at the CI's dojo is his business.

So I can be clear, just where are you wearing the white belt at?

If you've not sat down to explain your actions to your CI, then you need to have done that before you started to wear the white belt. Also, you need to , if you haven't already, explain the reasons why to your students so they don't become confused and the like.

I respect your reasons to grasp and learn Te from said instructor; it will enrich your MA journey.

Loyalty and respect can be shown to both and to all by doing what's right. It's a thin line, but it's not a cloudy one. Still, follow your heart!!

[CredoTe]

I'm glad to see frank advice from all angles here. My head is still spinning from all this, so I'll explain as best I can...

To clarify some ambiguities: 1.) my CI's dojo is also my dojo - we own it together, 50/50 partnership. From a business standpoint, we're equal; from an MA standpoint, he's higher rank than me (obviously), so I defer to him in issues where he feels he must pull rank (which is not often). 2.) The only time I wear my white belt is during my private lessons with my Ti instructor; none of our dojo's students are present.

In my OP, I mention that I've been searching for the "core/root" of our karate. This journey has included my CI on recurring occasion because we both realized something was amiss. So, he's known for years of my/our interest in seeking out this knowledge. We've had a good go of it, so far, with no previous issues (other than finding the best way to introduce these concepts to our students).

When my Ti instructor first showed up a few years ago, it was because he's known me for almost my entire life as a family friend and caught wind of our then new dojo. He came out in support of us (at that time and now, he doesn't have a dojo). After getting to know my CI a bit, the three of us sat down and we told him of our journey to make our karate better. We then talked about him helping us with Ti and getting our art cleaned up and closer to Osensei Nagamine's art and Okinawan Shorin-Ryu in general.

So, for a few years on and off, he's been coming to our dojo to help my CI and me with Ti, as well as spending occasional after-hours class time with our students at-large to help us all in Ti. He does this all for free, doesn't charge us a dime. In return, we allow him to use our dojo to teach his children privately, outside of normal business hours. Additionally, any supplies or whatever he needs, we get them for him; it's a valuable trade-off to us.

Last summer (2013), he personally invited me to his private lessons that he has for his children. Yes, it's my/my CI's dojo... But, I was personally invited to be his Ti student by being a part of his private lessons he holds for his family. He talked to my CI about it, and my CI didn't seem to have a problem.

After 1 private lesson with my Ti instructor (wore my black belt), because of the honor and respect I felt for him and the Ti, I made the decision on my own to wear a white belt. He didn't ask or demand I wear one; I just did it of my own accord. I must admit that I didn't really think about how my CI or prospects would see my white belt because I'm focused on the art (learning), focused on providing an improved MA to our students, and the lessons are private and outside of normal business hours.

My thoughts and feelings about wearing a white belt had nothing to do with my time/rank with my CI; my Ti training was totally new and different from anything I've learned before. While not a totally separate style from what I'm ranked in, the concepts and methods are different enough from what I've learned that I truly felt I was a beginner. This is not an attack against my CI or his knowledge and experience, just the truth.

Maybe I should have discussed the white belt with my CI, first. Looking back and realizing that I was so focused on the art and whatnot, I didn't think that I would have to worry about my CI being angry with me (again, as focused as I was/am, the thought of my CI being angry and discussing it with him didn't even occur to me). Putting myself in my CI's shoes, on the surface, I can see now why he would be upset. However, I thought he knew me better than that; that my intentions are not to disrespect or undermine him.

I definitely do not want to lose the Ti training, nor the relationship I have with either instructor. So, the resolution may be, as some here have suggested, is to just to wear my black belt. That's the simplest solution (my Ti instructor would be ok with it); but, unless I can work this situation through with my CI, I may have to find another location to train with my Ti instructor (as others of suggested). I really don't want to do that, but I guess I made this bed...

[devil dog]

I can see this from both perspectives.

I admire your humility and willingness to dawn a white belt. Not many higher ranking Karateka want others to think of them as a student. But in reality we are all students. Knowing what was in your heart and mind I believe you made what you believed to be the right decision.

My instructor, years ago, started class wearing a white belt to illustrate that we are all students and it is always good to have a beginners mind. I have in the past followed his teachings and have done this myself.

However you and your CI have a dojo together and what you do reflects on him and the art. By telling you to train under this other instructor in the dojo he showed humility and showed that he is more interested in you learning and advancing even if that means you doing it under someone else.

This is the mark of a good instructor and shows concern for his student's advancement rather than his pride.

By wearing a white belt as a head instructor in your/Ci's dojo you discredit your arts teachings and risk students and parents seeing you learning from him as a student rather than an instructor getting instruction from another instructor. This may give them the impression that his way is better. The appearance being that the head instructor is learning from him as his student in your own dojo. This would be detrimental to your school.

I understand where you are coming from and admire you for it but on the other hand it does not show respect for your Sensei or your art. It would be different if you were taking a new art.

If I were given the same opportunity I would wear the belt you were given to show respect to your Sensei and your art. You can show this new instructor respect without wearing a white belt.

I have taken instruction from many other instructors both within and outside of my chosen art. If starting a new art I most definitely will wear a white belt but if taking instruction inside of mine or my Sensei's dojo I wear my rank. The same is true when teaching as a guest in someone else's dojo. I wear my rank and they wear theirs. It is not a sign of disrespect to wear your rank even though you may be getting instruction in a new art or style, especially in your own dojo.

If you chose to become his student then I would suggest doing it at a different location.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

By the way I noticed that you are in Ohio. Where in ohio are you located? I trained in Matsubayashi Ryu as a kid in Loveland OH under Sensei Peters and ended up meeting O'Sensei Nagamine years later on a trip to Okinawa to train.

[CredoTe]

To clarify, when my CI and I sat down with my Ti instructor, we made arrangements that my CI and I would train with my Ti instructor after class hours by ourselves. So, it was just the three of us (when my CI could make it), and I would wear my black belt to these sessions. Even when my CI wasn't there, I would still wear my black belt because students could watch us training if they stuck around. We didn't tell our students not to stick around because we thought it would be good for them to see us training.

Then, when my Ti instructor personally invited me to his private lessons that he holds for his children, that's when I made the decision to wear a white belt. To be clear, I only wear the white belt to these private sessions, no others. These private sessions are outside of normal business hours (not even held on the same days as normal classes), closed to our students, and my CI has known that I go to these (my Ti instructor cleared it with him, first). My CI never really "told me" to train under my Ti instructor; I was invited and I went.

I do see where you are coming from, devil dog. As I mentioned previously, I think the short term fix is to wear my black belt. Then, talk things over with my CI so he understands that I never meant any disrespect.

[devil dog]

To be clear, I only wear the white belt to these private sessions, no others. These private sessions are outside of normal business hours (not even held on the same days as normal classes), closed to our students, and my CI has known that I go to these (my Ti instructor cleared it with him, first). My CI never really "told me" to train under my Ti instructor; I was invited and I went.

I guess I did not read your earlier post well enough or did not realize what you had said. My apologies.

[wagnerk]

Glad that it sorted, well at least for now

[sensei8]

To clarify, when my CI and I sat down with my Ti instructor, we made arrangements that my CI and I would train with my Ti instructor after class hours by ourselves. So, it was just the three of us (when my CI could make it), and I would wear my black belt to these sessions. Even when my CI wasn't there, I would still wear my black belt because students could watch us training if they stuck around. We didn't tell our students not to stick around because we thought it would be good for them to see us training.

Then, when my Ti instructor personally invited me to his private lessons that he holds for his children, that's when I made the decision to wear a white belt. To be clear, I only wear the white belt to these private sessions, no others. These private sessions are outside of normal business hours (not even held on the same days as normal classes), closed to our students, and my CI has known that I go to these (my Ti instructor cleared it with him, first). My CI never really "told me" to train under my Ti instructor; I was invited and I went.

I do see where you are coming from, devil dog. As I mentioned previously, I think the short term fix is to wear my black belt. Then, talk things over with my CI so he understands that I never meant any disrespect.

Yes, I'm glad that it worked out for all concerned. Btw, it's just a belt, [To whomever...please, don't be upset that I said that] if the training is in private, and all students are gone, why even worry about the belt. You know what you are to your Ti instructor, and your Ti instructor knows what rank he is. Even if your students hang around to watch, neither of you have to wear said belt because your students know your rank under the Ti instructor.

Letting the students watch is cool, and if they're there to possibly learn via watching you two, then what belt either of you wear is immaterial, imho. It's the knowledge that's important, not the belt.