MA in Crisis: McDojos & Tournament-itis & MMA

[CredoTe]

We began discussing "Dojo Disease" in an interesting topic, IMHO, posted by bassaiguy here:

http://www.karateforums.com/dojo-disease-vt45017.html

The discussion was regarding students that aren't active partners and basically just go through the motions. That thread led to some philosophical questions that I had, in which I created another thread that expounded upon this idea of "Dojo Disease". The expansion merely questioned whether or not Dojo Disease is related to, or is the same as, "just going through the motions". My expansion thread can be read here:

http://www.karateforums.com/dojo-disease-going-through-the-motions-vt45333.html

Well, now, I would like to pose a follow-up discussion that aims at what I think is the larger issue. From my Dojo Disease & Going Through the Motions thread, sensei8's post swerves into this larger issue:

I do believe that they are part of a larger issue. That issue, I believe it to be, is birthed by our society believing that the short cut to any known goal has to be much better than going through the many untold years that it truly takes.

MA students have discovered this to be true. Hence the creation of many McDojo's and the like. In that, the other co-issue is money; unfortunately one begets the other intentionally.

Promotions are given out just like some mutant piece of candy. It's no longer of any value to have to truly earn any promotion, and this is true when instructors and the like are handing out 100% pass ratios to their students.

So... To fully posit, the idea in our society that "short-cutting" to any known goal (in our case, becoming a "black belt" / MA) is better, more efficient, more economical than going on the full journey has created the McDojo. In turn, the McDojo, in order to show their customers (students) they're getting their money's worth and to "coddle" their customers' skill level, just promote belt levels de facto.

Essentially, McDojos = Black Belt Factories.

In turn, these Black Belt Factories, in order to further ingratiate themselves with their students and to further "coddle" their students' skill levels, tend to encourage "Dojo Disease" because I think it leads to "Tournament-itis". This Tournament-itis is developed in students who are taught to believe in winning trophies at tournaments (some students inherently believe in winning trophies). So, Tournament-itis is a Dojo Disease in which students train specifically to win trophies at tournaments. To clarify, "tournament" as I use the term does not include any sort of hardcore competition like K1, full-contact kumite, MMA, or the like.

Furthermore, McDojos / Black Belt Factories and their propensity for Tournament-itis, IMHO, are a major contributing factor in the stigma that Karate / traditional MA are useless; useless on the street, useless versus MMA, or useless in the MMA (for this, I know there are now some MMA'ers emerging that have Karate backgrounds, but this emergence seems more recent).

Remember, I'm not making a futile style vs. style discussion...this is not about Karate / traditional MA vs MMA. The MMA movement figured everything out by itself for itself. They rightfully found a niche market that "originally" served people who were disillusioned by the McDojos / Black Belt Factories. Now, they've grown into their own behemoth that churns out some of the top athletes of the world.

We, as Karate / traditional MA, need figure out our future for ourselves by ourselves and not look at anyone but ourselves. If we do not do this, I fear that Karate / traditional MA, particularly the Te (Ti), will die off forever... -----> ----->

What do you think or feel? What can we do, if anything, to change this issue? Can we better organize or market our Karate / traditional MA without just becoming a different form of MMA gym? Or, is that what we precisely need to do, to become a variant of an MMA gym?

Again, what must we change to keep our MA alive? I really don't want the Te (Ti) / Karate to die...

*Steps down from soapbox now...*

[mal103]

Interesting topic but I don't think Karate (in my case) will die out.

I can only go on my experience, I have seen and heard about some poor quality orgs/clubs in my area, this annoys me as all of the people who get disillusioned with them mostly seem to give up Karate and end up in Judo, TKD, MMA, etc or nothing!

I have also been to some great clubs to visit and have met some amazing Karate-ka along the way who all have the right spirit and attitude.

Blowing own trumpet time....

We have gradually increased our standards and are producing some excellent students, those that don't meet us with 100% effort in their training end up on Brown belt row and either get on with it or get bored and leave. We generally get around the western trophy disease by only allowing good students to grade so we don't have to fail them, some still get a temp pass though.

To keep any club financially afloat some seem to turn greedy and end up losing students, what actually happens in most clubs I know is that you will have the serious core students who will make it and the wannabees that will help towards your hire fees until they get bored because they can't be bothered.

There are no short cuts in Karate and you will only get out what you put in, those that understand this will do well.

What's the answer then? No idea but can speculate a bit...

Politics/power need to be sorted out, we have far too many that are all singing the same song but differently, one sure method of raising standards and "enforcing" minimum standards would be to have a main governing body type of thing but then you run into all the normal power/money bull.

I would love to put an add in our papers stating we train REAL Karate but then it sounds wrong and annoys the others...

[CredoTe]

Great post, mal103!

The McDojos / Black Belt Factories will always be around. Their drive to water down MA in order to make money off unsuspecting students, and in turn to promote flashy, glamorous tournaments in the interest of trophies, will keep them in business. As you hit upon, I'm referring to the "real" Karate / traditional MA schools as being the MA schools in crisis and eventually dying off.

This idea, of "real" Karate / traditional MA schools dying off, is a major premise of my soap box dialog in my thread-starter post...

[sensei8]

First of all...Great OP!!

They, whomever they might be, can label any MA anyway that they feel but it doesn't and shouldn't effect anyone. Why? My MA journey is MINE and I won't allow it to die. Even if that means that I travel at time quite alone!!

What can we do, if anything, to change this issue?

Nothing!! It would take a miracle to end the "give me now no matter what it may cost" campaign because that's what's the easiest way to learn the MA. No sweat, no blood, no tears; just "here you go sir/maam!!"

Can we better organize or market our Karate / traditional MA without just becoming a different form of MMA gym?

Brand management isn't an easy issue because one has to understand just HOW to manage ones brand. It'll take more mistakes than Carter has liver pills before one 'masters' brand management. Just be HONEST in operating ones school of the MA, and don't try to find the shortcuts all of the time because they'll fall like a ton of bricks right on top of your head.

Again, what must we change to keep our MA alive?

Be honest across the board!!

[CredoTe]

First of all...Great OP!!

They, whomever they might be, can label any MA anyway that they feel but it doesn't and shouldn't effect anyone. Why? My MA journey is MINE and I won't allow it to die. Even if that means that I travel at time quite alone!!

What can we do, if anything, to change this issue?

Nothing!! It would take a miracle to end the "give me now no matter what it may cost" campaign because that's what's the easiest way to learn the MA. No sweat, no blood, no tears; just "here you go sir/maam!!"

Can we better organize or market our Karate / traditional MA without just becoming a different form of MMA gym?

Brand management isn't an easy issue because one has to understand just HOW to manage ones brand. It'll take more mistakes than Carter has liver pills before one 'masters' brand management. Just be HONEST in operating ones school of the MA, and don't try to find the shortcuts all of the time because they'll fall like a ton of bricks right on top of your head.

Again, what must we change to keep our MA alive?

Be honest across the board!!

Sooo glad you posted that, sensei8... I'm taking notes because I know this advice will come in handy later. mal103's too...

[ps1]

I would love to put an add in our papers stating we train REAL Karate but then it sounds wrong and annoys the others...

I know the feeling. Even at my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academy I often want to put that we train "Real" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And it's a relatively new art form. It's just that, with all the tourneys and "no-gi" grappling stuff out there, too many are losing the point of BJJ's inception. Which was self defense.

So here's an art, developed in 1925, that already has a great deal of watering in less than 100 years.

[CredoTe]

I would love to put an add in our papers stating we train REAL Karate but then it sounds wrong and annoys the others...

I know the feeling. Even at my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academy I often want to put that we train "Real" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And it's a relatively new art form. It's just that, with all the tourneys and "no-gi" grappling stuff out there, too many are losing the point of BJJ's inception. Which was self defense.

So here's an art, developed in 1925, that already has a great deal of watering in less than 100 years.

Whaaa..?!? Ya'll in BJJ/MMA are experiencing the same thing?!? Stick a post-it on my forehead and call me "stupid"...lol I didn't think you guys had to deal with this; that this is one of the main reasons MMA came about...

As I mentioned in my thread starter about MMA seeming to figure it out for themselves, what did you do, or continue to do, to figure this out? Style aside, what are you guys on the lookout for in terms of "watered down" JJJ/BJJ/MMA and "McMMAs"? For instance, what does your specific BJJ/MMA gym do (or don't do) to "keep it real"?

[ps1]

I would love to put an add in our papers stating we train REAL Karate but then it sounds wrong and annoys the others...

I know the feeling. Even at my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academy I often want to put that we train "Real" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. And it's a relatively new art form. It's just that, with all the tourneys and "no-gi" grappling stuff out there, too many are losing the point of BJJ's inception. Which was self defense.

So here's an art, developed in 1925, that already has a great deal of watering in less than 100 years.

Whaaa..?!? Ya'll in BJJ/MMA are experiencing the same thing?!? Stick a post-it on my forehead and call me "stupid"...lol I didn't think you guys had to deal with this; that this is one of the main reasons MMA came about...

As I mentioned in my thread starter about MMA seeming to figure it out for themselves, what did you do, or continue to do, to figure this out? Style aside, what are you guys on the lookout for in terms of "watered down" JJJ/BJJ/MMA and "McMMAs"? For instance, what does your specific BJJ/MMA gym do (or don't do) to "keep it real"?

I can't speak to MMA, which is a sport in and of itself.

But in BJJ, there are three factions.

1. Traditionalists: Those who believe the system was developed for Self Defense using leverage based techniques with a focus on grappling over striking. It should be trained primarily in a gi because the gi slows things down and allows you to become very technical. Free rolling should be done both with and without striking and is always best to start standing because that's where most confrontations begin. --->>>> This is where most of the Gracie Family falls. It's also an art, not just a sport.

2. Players: These are the guys who do BJJ and believe it's just a sport. They don't practice it as a self defense art. They may be quite skilled but honestly don't know/care what to do if someone is striking at them.

3. Pretenders: These are usually all no-gi guys that trained a little bit and feel they are experts. They see no use for the gi and usually focus on physical attributes over technique. They'll pump iron for 3 hours then go "grapple." These guys annoy the heck out of me.

[CredoTe]

I can't speak to MMA, which is a sport in and of itself.

But in BJJ, there are three factions.

1. Traditionalists: Those who believe the system was developed for Self Defense using leverage based techniques with a focus on grappling over striking. It should be trained primarily in a gi because the gi slows things down and allows you to become very technical. Free rolling should be done both with and without striking and is always best to start standing because that's where most confrontations begin. --->>>> This is where most of the Gracie Family falls. It's also an art, not just a sport.

2. Players: These are the guys who do BJJ and believe it's just a sport. They don't practice it as a self defense art. They may be quite skilled but honestly don't know/care what to do if someone is striking at them.

3. Pretenders: These are usually all no-gi guys that trained a little bit and feel they are experts. They see no use for the gi and usually focus on physical attributes over technique. They'll pump iron for 3 hours then go "grapple." These guys annoy the heck out of me.

Thanks for the info. Apparently, it's been going on long enough in your area of MA that you've been able to categorize the issue. I had no idea that the same issue we're experiencing has ingratiated itself into your MA world, as well. My ignorance may come from the fact that, around my living area, the only JJ I've seen is MMA-style BJJ and is only offered / taught in MMA gyms or "scrap houses". My experience with BJJ/MMA in my area would be akin to your category 3: "Pretenders" that you described. Some of them may have been category 2, but I couldn't decipher. None of the places even remotely resemble a dojo, and none of the practitioners wear anything close to a gi, so I don't think any of them are Traditionalists according to your description. Basically, they seem like a place for a bunch of neanderthal meat-heads to learn how to beat people up more efficiently (IMHO, so they can sit around at their local "watering hole" and be "the coolest, toughest dude"...).

One of the reasons I joined KF was find JJ/BJJ/MMA folks out there that aren't meat-heads and can share their art, experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc without trying to "prove" they're better than everyone. So, again, thanks for sharing.

I'm definitely going to look into this and ask around. Maybe our common problem can be addressed by the "real JJ/BJJ dojos" and "real Karate / MA dojos" together sharing notes? How could the "real JJ/BJJ/Karate" dojos get together to improve things, if possible?

[bushido_man96]

I think the McDojo title gets tossed around a bit much, and I think that there are probably more quality schools and instructors out there than there are McDojos.

I was an ATA member early in my career. I felt that the training I received and the instuctors I had were very high quality. And yes, the school/club did try to make money. Its easier to stay open that way.

Its well-known that the ATA has its own tournament circuit, too. Its a decent circuit, and its all kept "in-house," so to speak, with the use of a "Top Ten" points system, and regional, national, and a worlds tournament held yearly. Tournaments can be a great money-maker for a school or region, and also a great advertisment in and of itself.

Now, all that said, I don't think the desire to compete is a bad thing, and I don't think an instructor should limit a student's ability or opportunity to compete in tournaments. Tournament desire can really push one to work hard and understand what it takes to set reasonable objectives towards obtainable goals, and how to set about doing this. These are good skills to learn.

Now, it is the job of the instructor to make it understood that there is a difference between tournament competition and self-defense, and the relevance of tournaments should be kept in check.

I don't think that "traditional" styles will die off. However, I do think that they can benefit from some changes. I know that no body wants to hear that, really, because the traditional training style is what has been done for x years, and all that. Most likely, changes have been experienced along the way, but they've been so few and so far back, they are accepted as the norm, when they might not have been. I think cross-style tournament competition could be a great training experience. Learn how a DT instructor would teach things.

Another thing "traditional" styles need to realize is that since there are more training options out there, the "traditional" style won't always be the first choice for someone. A Wrestler who just got out of high school, with no college prospects, may gravitate to a BJJ school or an MMA gym. There are more choices available now, and if a prospective student doesn't like the stricter atmosphere of a "traditional" school, but prefers the looser atmosphere of an MMA gym or some BJJ schools, that will affect their decision, as well.

So, there are a lot of factors at work in the world of MAs now. I think it will constantly cycle, ebb and flow. And generate concern in equal cycles.