KUNG FU AND CHI NA ARE EFFECTIVE BOTH STANDUP AND GROUND

[KALIPUTRA]

Training Should also be done so that you are never taken to the ground.

[tallgeese]

I think anyone would agree that martial activities are both physical and mental with one relying totally on the other for effectual response.

As to the efficiency of Kung Fu and Chin na on the ground it's really a question of specialization. Both arts are excellent arts. I've been around, and trained with Chin na joint manipulation specialists, and it's really good joint manipulation. My understanding is that most of the training in this is on the feet ( a grappling range to be sure) but much less time in application from a negative position on the ground.

Now we look at any of the arts (not just BJJ) that specilize in ground combat. These are arts that focus almost entirely on what happens once you hit the ground. Sure, we do stand up and takedown work (much less in BJJ across the board if we're honest than wrestling or Judo) but most hours of training are on the mat already.

It's not really a question of technique (although I think history has born out that technique is an important factor in a styles effectiveness as well), but a question of math. Where does an art spend most of it's time working?

If a BJJ student learns a triangle and puts 100 hours of training in over a few months, and trains the triangle for 80 hours of that time you produce a product. Now, you take a KF student and show him the same tactic. Now he trains the same 100 hours, except he works on stand up, drills specific to KF training, ect for 80 hours and spends just 20 on the triangle. Who will will in a grappling match where you can use the triangle. The obvious answer in the guy who drilled it 5 times as much as the other.

This is not a cut on Kung Fu or any other system. Just a statement that arts that specialize in one aspect of combat will turn out practitioners who are, as a whole, better at that aspect. They will be less versed in others, but they will own that aspect.

You teach grappling. Great. It's important to shore up your art's holes (and we all have them). However, are you really teaching Kung Fu, or importing tactics from other arts to do this? Chances are, if you're rolling like BJJers you've imported the methodology and tactics. AND THAT IS FINE!

It's how we grow arts. It's what I did prior to having the chance to train BJJ all the time. But that does not really mean that Kung Fu (or the core art I started in, or ANY art) answers all problems.

As to never getting taken down. Maybe individuals are that good, but I think that it sets individuals up for failure to no prepare for a range of combat and then IF they do end up there they are more at a disadvantage if it does happen. Think about the psychology of conflict. If I train with the attitude "I'll never get taken down" what happens when I trip. Or, very realistically, a good wrestler puts me down? Now not only do I not have tactics to deal with the fight, but psychologically, I'm still reeling from the loss of dominance. I'm less likely to prevail.

Just some thoughts from a guy who came out of a really great art with limited grappling who once thought very much the same, and discovered differently.

[KALIPUTRA]

We do train on the ground, (for academic purposes i guess) but it is my opinion if you are taken to ground you give up a huge advantage so i instill in my pupils the need to finish a fight quickly in stand up position. One of my students recently said to me that some of his peers at school fight with loads of rules , fear of facial shots in sparring etc and he realized they are studying sports, what he is studying is a devastating martial art.

[tallgeese]

You do give up a huge advantage, unless you are really good on the ground. It's important to train there because even a high school level wrestler has a good shot a putting you down if you don't train to stay up.

It a range that fights happen in. And if we want to train to fight, we have to at least have a rudimentary understanding of the game.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the tactics from that you're using on the ground?

[KALIPUTRA]

Basic Chin na adapted to ground technique fighting, using opponents own force against them as is the basis of chin na

[FullPotentialMA]

Kung Fu, as well as traditional Okinawan karate and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu are all comprehensive arts. In other words, taught effectively, they prepare the practitioner for fighting in long range, in close range, and on the ground. The notion (really, misconception, IMHO) that Jiu-jitsu is "just" for ground fighting and kung fu and karate are "just" for striking, is relatively new. In our dojo in Carmel Valley, San Diego, we practice all martial arts aspects. Reason is that in self defense, you cannot expect a student to "infer" from one part of their training to another (under stress of an actual street situation) without practicing it ahead of time.

[KALIPUTRA]

We do it to hone our skills and challenge ourselves nobody could ever take one of my boys or me to the ground.

[tallgeese]

Respectfully, because I'm sure you're skilled at what you do, that's a big statement. Maybe someone can, maybe someone can't; but by drilling it into student's heads that no one is going to take them down really sets them behind in mental prep if it does happen.

Let's look at this another way as well. What if we're not talking about a fight ending up on the ground outside of the traditional ideal of a takedown. What if one is ambushed. It's hard to defend anything if you don't see it coming. What if one of your fighter trips due to a curb, or ice, or just flat out trips due to a bad step.

These things happen.

By burning absolutes into trainees heads you set them up for a mental hiccup when it does happen.

FullPotential, I don't disagree that there are aspects of about any system that can be used outside their specilization. But again, we talking about focus here. If you want to learn to fight on the ground, spending time with an art that focuses there will get you good in the ground fight quicker. Me, doing a lot of BJJ these days, if I want to do takedowns more (something that we do conduct in BJJ but not truly it's specialty if we're being honest) then I'd spend some time in Judo if I wanted them up and running in shorter order.

Will I eventually get those takedown reps in jits? Sure, but it's not the focus at the clubs I've trained at. So, if I want them quicker I'd address that in an art focused on them.

That's all. As for utilizing aspects of your arts to fight on the ground, that's a great start. For a long time that's where I was when I was in a spot with no grappling arts.

If there's a piece of advice I would give, it would be to seek out competent grapplers out of grappling specific arts to work out a fundamental understanding of the ground from. This is where they live, they can save you untold hours working on things that might be taking you down a wrong path.

Just my thoughts from a guy who's been there.

[Harkon72]

Tallgees is right, there are no absolutes in Martial Arts, every beginner can win, every Master can be mastered.

[yamesu]

If there's a piece of advice I would give, it would be to seek out competent grapplers out of grappling specific arts to work out a fundamental understanding of the ground from. This is where they live, they can save you untold hours working on things that might be taking you down a wrong path.

Just my thoughts from a guy who's been there.

Exactly - you wouldn't hire a baker to do electrical work would you?