Does It Belong?

[sensei8]

That's a fair question. I've a few queries myself to ask.

For, what does it gain the practitioner? Does it mean anything beyond its external content?

Possibly, one only does it because it's what one is expected to do because everyone else there does this thing quite a lot before, during, and after. Is it a cultural thing? And if so, how come one, who's not of that particular culture, decide whether one's to do it or not?

Are we look upon by those outside of our MA world as mere simple minded people that do, but do not truly understand as to the "why" of this thing?

If someone refuses, for whatever personal reason(s) that they might have, do we respect them for that which decides whether they should accept the rule or deny said rule?

Does one cast away what they believe in because, for the moment, they're engaged in learning the MA, their beliefs so that they can participate in said MA?

Who's to decide that for said practitioner? The practitioner? The instructor? The governing body? Just whom??

Are we to surrender to that, which seems to rule against what we believe in or not, thing as its perceived servitude is forced upon through said rule?

I do it because this is what I've done for my entire MA life; 49 years this October 18, 2013. I've not done it because I was told that it was and is expected of me. No! Our Soke and Dai-Soke did it and then we learned how to do it whenever it was required as well as when it was necessary. I didn't get punished for not doing it. I wasn't ridiculed for not doing it. I wasn't outcasted for not doing it. I wasn't made fun of for not doing it. I just did it because I was taught that that's what one does when one's in a karate dojo.

After a very short while, I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do. I felt that it honored my Soke and Dai-Soke. I felt it was the right thing because I respected my fellow MAist. I felt that it caused no physical injury to perform for myself and/or for my fellow MAist. I felt that it honored the MA itself. I felt that it was a way to show respect across the MA board.

It is, to me, just a thing. A thing that is not of my culture but it was part of the culture that Shindokan came from. I never believed in the saying that speaks about..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do." That, for me, isn't a good enough reason for me to do it. I live in a time and place where one's not put to death or prison for doing or for not doing this one thing.

It's a simple gesture, that I feel, isn't harmful at all. In that, I don't believe that God would see it as me worshiping another. There are far more weighted things of accountability than this one thing, imho!!

Don't want to do it for whatever reason(s). Then don't partake of that which demands of one, even if that MA means the world to you. That one thing, imho, shouldn't stop you from training in the MA. But if it does, then I respect you for that because it's not my call; it's your call and your call alone.

Don't want to do it in my dojo? Then respect my dojo while you're in my dojo because this thing is done quite a lot in my dojo. If not, by your own choice, then I would ask that we still remain fellow MAist, but I must ask you to leave my dojo with no ill-will felt towards you by myself.

Am I then forcing you? To decide...yes! To perform it...no! I respect the rules of your home when I'm your guest, therefore, I ask that my students respect the rules of my home. My home is, of cource, my dojo.

What is this thing?

BOWING!! Does it belong or not?

That question is up the the individual MAist, imho!!

[Harkon72]

It belongs in our Dojo, every class begins and ends with it. Every section of the class begins and ends with it. Each conversation begins and ends with it in the Dojo. Respect is shown between individuals and all class members at all times. This is regardless of gender, age or grade. It's a simple motion but it means a great deal to us, our Club is our Family.

[ninjanurse]

I agree with all you have presented here. It is a gesture of respect and honors those who receive it-no strings attached for me!

[Kusotare]

Budo begins and ends with a bow!

As martial artists, we trust in our training partners - our health (and lives when it comes to weapons) is literally in their hands.

They are our training / support buddies in this respect and we need to make sure they have our best interest at heart and vice versa – otherwise we get hurt!

"Bu" in Budo means martial, however the more holistic understanding is to cease (in term of violence) – Soldiers don’t train to keep fighting, they train to “stop” conflicts - as efficiently as possible.

Without "Rei" we are simply thugs! (From a Japanese Budo perspective).

K

[sensei8]

Solid posts, everyone!!

Bowing has become such a normal part of my MA life. I do it without pause and/or question. However, while bowing maybe a natural thing for me, Bowing has its place, and in that, I don't bow outside of any MA venue.

Outside of any given MA venue, I might shake hanks or I fist bump or I do a high-five or just a simple "hello", or whatever else I feel is appropriate for the context of the moment.

Whatever I feel is comfortable for me, this is what I do, outside of the MA venue, that is.

[ps1]

I explain it this way to people who don't understand it. A bow is, simply, a sign of respect. Our class begins with a bow to the image of Grandmaster Helio Gracie. Since it's impossible to simply shake his hand, the bow is the closest thing we have. Most people get it after that.

[CredoTe]

Yes... We bow entering or leaving the dojo, entering or leaving the training deck, beginning and ending class to our Shinzen and then to we the instructors and then everyone to everyone.

To clarify, I do not subscribe to the notion that "respect goes up from lower ranks to higher ranks / yudansha, and no disrespect goes down." In other words, all lower / kyu ranks must "respect" all the higher ranks / yudansha, and as long as a higher ranked student / yudansha doesn't deliberately "disrespect" a lower ranked student, then protocol is followed. To me, this is a cop-out.

To me, bowing is more than a sign of respect to those that came before us in MA, it is also a sign of respect from one human to another. Just because my instructor and I outrank the other students doesn't mean we can ignore respect towards them. They're still humans. For me personally, IMHO, when I bow to my students, I am respecting them for the gift they give me; that gift is willful submission to my instruction and authority. The instant I disrespect / abuse that gift, I lose integrity and credibility, and my students will leave.

[sensei8]

Yes, many cultures bow to one each other for one reason(s) or another, and in that, surely not every culture bows in the types that are found within the MA.

Whether one's bowing out of a sign as respect or as a servant for some nobility and the like, bowing is widely used across the globe. I believe that the act of bowing is understood universally.

[CredoTe]

Yes... We bow entering or leaving the dojo, entering or leaving the training deck, beginning and ending class to our Shinzen and then to we the instructors and then everyone to everyone.

To clarify, I do not subscribe to the notion that "respect goes up from lower ranks to higher ranks / yudansha, and no disrespect goes down." In other words, all lower / kyu ranks must "respect" all the higher ranks / yudansha, and as long as a higher ranked student / yudansha doesn't deliberately "disrespect" a lower ranked student, then protocol is followed. To me, this is a cop-out.

To me, bowing is more than a sign of respect to those that came before us in MA, it is also a sign of respect from one human to another. Just because my instructor and I outrank the other students doesn't mean we can ignore respect towards them. They're still humans. For me personally, IMHO, when I bow to my students, I am respecting them for the gift they give me; that gift is willful submission to my instruction and authority. The instant I disrespect / abuse that gift, I lose integrity and credibility, and my students will leave.

And from:

Yes, many cultures bow to one each other for one reason(s) or another, and in that, surely not every culture bows in the types that are found within the MA.

Whether one's bowing out of a sign as respect or as a servant for some nobility and the like, bowing is widely used across the globe. I believe that the act of bowing is understood universally.

Oops... sorry sensei8, maybe we're getting off topic, and I need to rectify my earlier post..?

Yes... IMHO, bowing belongs in our dojo. My previous post contains details why do bow (as well as what we're not bowing for...)

[tallgeese]

I don't think it matters and is up to the culture of the school. Granted, it's part of most common Asian arts so of course it belongs. There are more modernized schools I've trained in where it really didn't fit. So, no problem there either.

It really boils down to the culture of the individual club.