The Knife Hand Might Be Misunderstood

[sensei8]

Many MAists are convinced that a knife hand block is performed using the edge of the hand to make contact with the opponent. To many Karateka's, especially within Shindokan, this is illogical, as blocking a strong fighter like this could easily break your hand.

The Okinawan way of blocking with the open hand is not with the knife edge, of the open hand, but with the forearm. Why? It is impossible to perform a whipping action with the edge of the hand.

Yes, this is possibly one methodology/ideology, but I ask that you might consider it openly!!

[ps1]

I've never used shuto as a block per se. Here's a good video that is very similar to how we always practiced it.

[Wastelander]

ps1, is that by any chance the video of Bill Hayes Sensei demonstrating an application for shuto? I'm at work and can't watch it, but I know it's been going around lately. That is one of our most common way to use that technique.

We don't typically use the knife/sword hand as a hard block, but when we do we aren't terribly picky about the impact area--anywhere from the bottom half of the edge of the hand to the elbow is generally okay. It gives you a wider margin of error that way.

[ps1]

ps1, is that by any chance the video of Bill Hayes Sensei demonstrating an application for shuto? I'm at work and can't watch it, but I know it's been going around lately. That is one of our most common way to use that technique.

We don't typically use the knife/sword hand as a hard block, but when we do we aren't terribly picky about the impact area--anywhere from the bottom half of the edge of the hand to the elbow is generally okay. It gives you a wider margin of error that way.

I'm gonna be honest and say I don't know who that is demonstrating the drill. But I liked it. I just picked it because it was most similar to what we use the technique for.

[mal103]

Makes sense, like a lot of moves that are labelled as blocks they can also be used as strikes - I use all standard "blocks" on punch bags to good effect.

I have also misjudged the Shuto block during Kumite and ended up blocking with my little finger - OUCH!

If you are quick then the only real block I would use the hand for is to intercept a big swinging punch by hitting the inner elbow/lower bicep, but it would have to be quick! Most other times we envisage the Shuto striking into the neck.

I've seen a clip of Shuto where it was more an overhead and downward strike, and yes, considering the wrist/forearm as an alternative striking point makes perfect sense, also in line with Iain Abernethy it gets the distance a lot closer than the standard view of someone attacking from 5 feet away.

I guess that a forearm against a coller bone would win...

[bushido_man96]

I've never used shuto as a block per se. Here's a good video that is very similar to how we always practiced it.

I liked that drill. That's the problem with what we do in our TKD class, we don't explore things like this for these different blocks and strikes. Its all just seen as face value in the forms, which doesn't always add up until you start digging a little.

Now, if the knife hand is done in the "blocking" way, like a middle block with an open hand, then don't we need to start looking at why that hand is open on one block, and not on another? Is it so we can slide down to grab? That is my guess, but I'm just throwing stabs out here.

[sensei8]

I've never used shuto as a block per se. Here's a good video that is very similar to how we always practiced it.

I liked that drill. That's the problem with what we do in our TKD class, we don't explore things like this for these different blocks and strikes. Its all just seen as face value in the forms, which doesn't always add up until you start digging a little.

Now, if the knife hand is done in the "blocking" way, like a middle block with an open hand, then don't we need to start looking at why that hand is open on one block, and not on another? Is it so we can slide down to grab? That is my guess, but I'm just throwing stabs out here.

BUNKAI/OYO...it would open up so much for you Brian, imho!! Why things are done and the many different avenues available.

[CredoTe]

Many MAists are convinced that a knife hand block is performed using the edge of the hand to make contact with the opponent. To many Karateka's, especially within Shindokan, this is illogical, as blocking a strong fighter like this could easily break your hand.

The Okinawan way of blocking with the open hand is not with the knife edge, of the open hand, but with the forearm. Why? It is impossible to perform a whipping action with the edge of the hand.

Yes, this is possibly one methodology/ideology, but I ask that you might consider it openly!!

sensei8, we absolutely do practice shuto uke with the bottom outside edge of our hands; that part of our hands has tougher bones. We train shuto uke against bags, makiwara, and partner drills to develop use of this part of our hands. This issue comes up frequently with our novice adult students because, as you pointed out, it seems illogical... We demonstrate a shuto uke inside against a full power haymaker to show them how it's possible (but not necessarily ideal). We also demonstrate a shuto uke to the outside of a haymaker by combining it with a barai and a side-step (thus making the shuto uke more of a strike).

Shuto uke is not executed with just wrist "whip"/"snap"/"flick" alone... Gamaku must be factored in!

When facing an opponent that's considerably bigger and more muscle-y than me, it becomes an issue of drawing upon different bunkai/oyo and changing my tactics, rather than just attempting to force-stop his punch; if he's that big and strong, it may or may not do damage when force-stopped.

On the other hand, I agree with your explanation of using the forearm as another way of using a shuto uke as a strike. I can see how it would be effective... We do have a bunkai/oyo that shows the use our forearm with shuto uke when used as part of moving into and through Iri kumi (in-fighting) to exert control, manipulation, force, etc to produce locks, bars, takedowns, etc... all still with Gamaku, of course

I've never used shuto as a block per se. Here's a good video that is very similar to how we always practiced it.

And from:

Makes sense, like a lot of moves that are labelled as blocks they can also be used as strikes - I use all standard "blocks" on punch bags to good effect.

I have also misjudged the Shuto block during Kumite and ended up blocking with my little finger - OUCH!

If you are quick then the only real block I would use the hand for is to intercept a big swinging punch by hitting the inner elbow/lower bicep, but it would have to be quick! Most other times we envisage the Shuto striking into the neck.

ps1, good find, good share! Great demonstration of bunkai/oyo of shuto uke... I totally agree with you and mal103; absolutely, blocks are also used as strikes (I'm new to the community here, but from all that I've read, it seems a lot of folks here think that way, which is good!). We do several partner drills showing this and how it would be used to make fighting sense in a real situation.

mal103, yeah, executing shuto uke with our fingers hurts I did it many times in the past, but not so much now, thankfully. That's one of the reasons, the main reason really, that we stress target practicing our shuto uke against makiwara, bags, and partners. We have the students start off easy until they get the technique / flow / mechanics of it down well enough to practice harder. Once they have it well and good, we have them target practice against makiwara and bags / target mitts full power, and against partners with controlled power (of course).

That's just my little two cents...

[sensei8]

Many MAists are convinced that a knife hand block is performed using the edge of the hand to make contact with the opponent. To many Karateka's, especially within Shindokan, this is illogical, as blocking a strong fighter like this could easily break your hand.

The Okinawan way of blocking with the open hand is not with the knife edge, of the open hand, but with the forearm. Why? It is impossible to perform a whipping action with the edge of the hand.

Yes, this is possibly one methodology/ideology, but I ask that you might consider it openly!!

sensei8, we absolutely do practice shuto uke with the bottom outside edge of our hands; that part of our hands has tougher bones. We train shuto uke against bags, makiwara, and partner drills to develop use of this part of our hands. This issue comes up frequently with our novice adult students because, as you pointed out, it seems illogical... We demonstrate a shuto uke inside against a full power haymaker to show them how it's possible (but not necessarily ideal). We also demonstrate a shuto uke to the outside of a haymaker by combining it with a barai and a side-step (thus making the shuto uke more of a strike).

Shuto uke is not executed with just wrist "whip"/"snap"/"flick" alone... Gamaku must be factored in!

When facing an opponent that's considerably bigger and more muscle-y than me, it becomes an issue of drawing upon different bunkai/oyo and changing my tactics, rather than just attempting to force-stop his punch; if he's that big and strong, it may or may not do damage when force-stopped.

On the other hand, I agree with your explanation of using the forearm as another way of using a shuto uke as a strike. I can see how it would be effective... We do have a bunkai/oyo that shows the use our forearm with shuto uke when used as part of moving into and through Iri kumi (in-fighting) to exert control, manipulation, force, etc to produce locks, bars, takedowns, etc... all still with Gamaku, of course

I've never used shuto as a block per se. Here's a good video that is very similar to how we always practiced it.

And from:

Makes sense, like a lot of moves that are labelled as blocks they can also be used as strikes - I use all standard "blocks" on punch bags to good effect.

I have also misjudged the Shuto block during Kumite and ended up blocking with my little finger - OUCH!

If you are quick then the only real block I would use the hand for is to intercept a big swinging punch by hitting the inner elbow/lower bicep, but it would have to be quick! Most other times we envisage the Shuto striking into the neck.

ps1, good find, good share! Great demonstration of bunkai/oyo of shuto uke... I totally agree with you and mal103; absolutely, blocks are also used as strikes (I'm new to the community here, but from all that I've read, it seems a lot of folks here think that way, which is good!). We do several partner drills showing this and how it would be used to make fighting sense in a real situation.

mal103, yeah, executing shuto uke with our fingers hurts I did it many times in the past, but not so much now, thankfully. That's one of the reasons, the main reason really, that we stress target practicing our shuto uke against makiwara, bags, and partners. We have the students start off easy until they get the technique / flow / mechanics of it down well enough to practice harder. Once they have it well and good, we have them target practice against makiwara and bags / target mitts full power, and against partners with controlled power (of course).

That's just my little two cents...

A very solid post!!

[CredoTe]

Many MAists are convinced that a knife hand block is performed using the edge of the hand to make contact with the opponent. To many Karateka's, especially within Shindokan, this is illogical, as blocking a strong fighter like this could easily break your hand.

The Okinawan way of blocking with the open hand is not with the knife edge, of the open hand, but with the forearm. Why? It is impossible to perform a whipping action with the edge of the hand.

Yes, this is possibly one methodology/ideology, but I ask that you might consider it openly!!

sensei8, we absolutely do practice shuto uke with the bottom outside edge of our hands; that part of our hands has tougher bones. We train shuto uke against bags, makiwara, and partner drills to develop use of this part of our hands. This issue comes up frequently with our novice adult students because, as you pointed out, it seems illogical... We demonstrate a shuto uke inside against a full power haymaker to show them how it's possible (but not necessarily ideal). We also demonstrate a shuto uke to the outside of a haymaker by combining it with a barai and a side-step (thus making the shuto uke more of a strike).

Shuto uke is not executed with just wrist "whip"/"snap"/"flick" alone... Gamaku must be factored in!

(Remaining quote from CredoTe redacted by CredoTe to save forum page / scroll space)

A very solid post!!

Arigato sensei8-san