How Important Is Kata In Shindokan Saitou-ryu?

[sensei8]

Emphasis on practicing drills with a partner is important because if you don't train with a partner, you will never learn how they move or fight. However, we must understand that this is only supplementary training, the main part of karate is the study of the kata.

I'm not sure I agree with this. At least I think that partner work and Kata study should be one and the same.

Even the bookish Funakoshi said that karate must not be a wholly intellectual pursuit.

We can learn fighting without kata, but we cannot learn kata without fighting.

I can appreciate what you're saying; I respect that!!

[sensei8]

Emphasis on practicing drills with a partner is important because if you don't train with a partner, you will never learn how they move or fight. However, we must understand that this is only supplementary training, the main part of karate is the study of the kata.

I'm not sure I agree with this. At least I think that partner work and Kata study should be one and the same.

Even the bookish Funakoshi said that karate must not be a wholly intellectual pursuit.

We can learn fighting without kata, but we cannot learn kata without fighting.

I agree with sensei8's statement. Why? Its not about intellectual pursuits. Its that the truth of karate is hidden in the kata. Its the playbook, the map, and through training and working it over and over, its secrets unravel.

You don't have to know kata or karate for that matter to know how to fight, but you cannot know karate without its kata.

As sensei8 said in that quote knowing kata doesnt mean you know how to fight, thats what partner training is for.

Goju ryu without its kata isn't goju ryu. As in Shindokan Saitou-ryu, its in its blood, its the the very essence.

I still believe that the supplemental element of kata is important. I learn the kata, but now I want to see the kata come alive. To do that, I need a partner!!

Studying the kata is the Bunkai/Oyo; therefore, without a partner to bring me that supplemental aspect alive, then I'm just learning how to swim on dry land.

Imho, one needs kihon, THEN kata, THEN kumite...over and over and over and over..........until the end of time!! Live training, as the supplemental, imho, is key in ones MA journey.

A two-legged chair sure doesn't stand quite well at all!!

[sensei8]

For example, there are some techniques performed from Shiko-dachi position in kata, but this stance is not used in real fighting

actually Surprisingly enough you can do shiko dachi to help prevent being tackled in a fight. Which is common in some situations

As it is a stable stance, and if you scoot back when you are low then you can avoid the tackle but also send them to the ground.

It CAN be assumed as a possible interpretation of Shiko-dachi's application, and it's effectiveness, MIGHT be at question...maybe!

[sensei8]

Cheesyfry

We're on the same page about kata's importance. What I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that partner training was "supplementary" to kata study.

IMO partner training IS kata study. I don't think there should be a distinction or de-emphasis of either aspect. One does not work without the other.

I must FIRST learn what goes where and when and how and why and so on and so forth; solo training, the core of the kata because that's how it's presented to most students...the 'A' before the 'B' or the '1' before the '2'.

Then, the supplemental training begins when I've a partner to execute live training so I can NOW see the where and when and how and why and so on and so forth.

Learn the steps first! Then, supplement that knowledge with someone who can throw the monkey wrench into the entire kata.

[CredoTe]

Cheesyfry

We're on the same page about kata's importance. What I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that partner training was "supplementary" to kata study.

IMO partner training IS kata study. I don't think there should be a distinction or de-emphasis of either aspect. One does not work without the other.

I must FIRST learn what goes where and when and how and why and so on and so forth; solo training, the core of the kata because that's how it's presented to most students...the 'A' before the 'B' or the '1' before the '2'.

Then, the supplemental training begins when I've a partner to execute live training so I can NOW see the where and when and how and why and so on and so forth.

Learn the steps first! Then, supplement that knowledge with someone who can throw the monkey wrench into the entire kata.

Both posts here are solid and are actually discussing two different cars that are a part of the same train. At its primary level, kata serves simply as a catalog of techniques and as a method of personal improvement/perfection. As a catalog of techniques, any time individual kata practice is performed, whether the student is first learning a kata or doing it for the 1000th time, it is a training method to remind both the body (muscle memory) and mind (movement concepts) how individual techniques are performed. As part of personal improvement, we do kata over and over and over again, each time attempting to concentrate on some minutiae here and there the work on and hone.

Bob's post regards a car that's a bit sooner in the train, near the front. When learning a kata, whether a student is taught movements first and then bunkai or vice versa, the student must understand the basic movements of each waza in the kata (from a physical, muscle memory standpoint, not necessarily intellectual understanding of bunkai) before being able to partner up.

DaveB's post regards a car that's only a bit later in the train, perhaps only a car or two after Bob's. Once the basic movements of each waza in a kata are understood from a physical standpoint, partner work is essential to understanding what we're actually doing with the moves in a kata.

Kumite comes from real fighting, so you need an opponent which is limiting. Kata evolved from kumite as a way of training without a partner. If you study kata seriously you will discover within it a wealth of techiques, theory, and knowledge.

This is a great point and I think goes well with the two posts quoted above. Originally, when Tii was first developed, there were no kata. Training included the study, learning, and development of movements and techniques using "shadow boxing", targets, or training partners (what we would call kihon), as well as fighting scenarios and live opponents where they would apply the techniques within the context of "matches" (what we would call kumite). There was a lot more to Tii than just the "kihon" and "kumite" aspects, but they provide insight into how the pre-founders of karate trained and developed their art.

The first vestiges of "kata" appeared within Okinawan folk dances, which the Tii players would learn during their training as both a cultural preservation and a method to "hide" the techniques as weapons and fighting methods became outlawed. These Tii waza didn't develop into full blown kata until after the infusion of Chinese martial arts with the Okinawans' indigenous Tii (becoming Tode).

[sensei8]

Cheesyfry

We're on the same page about kata's importance. What I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that partner training was "supplementary" to kata study.

IMO partner training IS kata study. I don't think there should be a distinction or de-emphasis of either aspect. One does not work without the other.

I must FIRST learn what goes where and when and how and why and so on and so forth; solo training, the core of the kata because that's how it's presented to most students...the 'A' before the 'B' or the '1' before the '2'.

Then, the supplemental training begins when I've a partner to execute live training so I can NOW see the where and when and how and why and so on and so forth.

Learn the steps first! Then, supplement that knowledge with someone who can throw the monkey wrench into the entire kata.

Both posts here are solid and are actually discussing two different cars that are a part of the same train. At its primary level, kata serves simply as a catalog of techniques and as a method of personal improvement/perfection. As a catalog of techniques, any time individual kata practice is performed, whether the student is first learning a kata or doing it for the 1000th time, it is a training method to remind both the body (muscle memory) and mind (movement concepts) how individual techniques are performed. As part of personal improvement, we do kata over and over and over again, each time attempting to concentrate on some minutiae here and there the work on and hone.

Bob's post regards a car that's a bit sooner in the train, near the front. When learning a kata, whether a student is taught movements first and then bunkai or vice versa, the student must understand the basic movements of each waza in the kata (from a physical, muscle memory standpoint, not necessarily intellectual understanding of bunkai) before being able to partner up.

DaveB's post regards a car that's only a bit later in the train, perhaps only a car or two after Bob's. Once the basic movements of each waza in a kata are understood from a physical standpoint, partner work is essential to understanding what we're actually doing with the moves in a kata.

Kumite comes from real fighting, so you need an opponent which is limiting. Kata evolved from kumite as a way of training without a partner. If you study kata seriously you will discover within it a wealth of techiques, theory, and knowledge.

This is a great point and I think goes well with the two posts quoted above. Originally, when Tii was first developed, there were no kata. Training included the study, learning, and development of movements and techniques using "shadow boxing", targets, or training partners (what we would call kihon), as well as fighting scenarios and live opponents where they would apply the techniques within the context of "matches" (what we would call kumite). There was a lot more to Tii than just the "kihon" and "kumite" aspects, but they provide insight into how the pre-founders of karate trained and developed their art.

The first vestiges of "kata" appeared within Okinawan folk dances, which the Tii players would learn during their training as both a cultural preservation and a method to "hide" the techniques as weapons and fighting methods became outlawed. These Tii waza didn't develop into full blown kata until after the infusion of Chinese martial arts with the Okinawans' indigenous Tii (becoming Tode).

Solid post!!

[scohen.mma]

Kata is definitely my favorite part of Karate. My Sensei Is very big on what your second paragraph explains. Just doing Kata alone is my favorite activity. I'll exhaust myself doing them before even thinking of playing video games like the rest of my friends. By the way. I'm quoting you:

"If you study Kata seriously you will discover within it a wealth of techniques, theory, and knowledge."

[scohen.mma]

Another one:

"The truth of karate is hidden in the kata. Its the playbook, the map, and through training and working it over and over, its secrets unravel."

[sensei8]

To me, anything that is in addition to what is originally taught is a supplement! For example, when you first learn kata, you learn the steps, you learn transitions, shifting, turning, sliding, so on and so forth.

Then you start learning other things concerning the kata, and it's those other thinks, like Bunkai/Oyo, live training, and the like, which are all very important, that I consider as supplement training, imho.

Possibly one could consider it compulsory, while I consider it supplementary!