Karate: Sanchin & SanZhan ... Any Connection?

[baiheshifu]

I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of Karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most Karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

The usual “swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating” that you hear about is really more Fukien, like in Fukien White Crane, Ngo Chor, Tai Chor etc and Shaolin.

Fuzhou Crane on the other hand has got the additional “internal” aspect. This is manifested in all our techniques, principles and Fist Poems.

In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a crane.

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth

Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

This is not some sort of "Crane Karate". Nor is it "Hakutsuru". This is the real art.

In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a Crane.

In Fuzhou Crane these are transmitted in poems-like writing. If you don't have a teacher explaining - it is going to be tough. We don’t just do forms. We also do application drills, sparring drills and conditioning drills within all the various systems.

Long-Winded I know!!! ... Just hope this shows what I am trying to say here.

[maisweh]

OMG!!!!!!

[Wastelander]

While I tend to agree with you, what you have written will probably upset a lot of people. Hakutsuru/Bai He Quan has been flaunted as the exotic, mysterious root of Okinawan karate for quite some time, and it has gotten to the point where people will grasp at any connection between it and what they do. I will say that Okinawan karate DOES contain Whooping Crane influences that were introduced by Wu Xiangui\Gokenki in the early 1900's, but that's as close to White Crane as it gets, as far as I can tell.

To me, Shuri-Te based karate bears more resemblance to Northern systems than the Southern ones we are always told about. There are influences from both, of course, but I think the Northern influence is stronger.

[maisweh]

im pretty sure it would be the way it was written that would upset people. some of the grips i noticed were the same in plumbflower/mantis as well as some striking points, but theres only so many ways teh body can move. its just evolution of the arts. after the chinese contact with okinawa, there was some transmission of techinques, but also too with siam, japan, thailand, etc.

[cheesefrysamurai]

Kanryo Higashionna, the creator of the predecessor to Goju absolutely trained in fuzjou

[CredoTe]

I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of Karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most Karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

The usual “swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating” that you hear about is really more Fukien, like in Fukien White Crane, Ngo Chor, Tai Chor etc and Shaolin.

...

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth

Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

baiheshifu,

While I am no expert on history, it is my understanding that He Quan is related to White Crane but not the same thing; specifically, that the Minghe Quan (Crying Crane) branch of He Quan has its roots from White Crane.

In my experience with Hung Gar (Tiger / White Crane), which of course is a Southern Shaolin (Siu Lum) style, the stances, body shifting and moving, and hand techniques are very similar (but not exactly the same) to Matsubayashi-Ryu. I understand that you are making a specific comparison to Fuzhou-based styles; you may be on to something there, but Hung Gar / Southern White Crane was (is) present in the Fujian / Fukien area, which would be consistent with current historical records relating Okinawan Karate to Southern White Crane. I'm not saying that Karate specifically derived from Hung Gar, only that Hung Gar is a form of Southern Shaolin that's been in the Fujian / Fukien area for a long time (which would also be consistent with your suggestion that Okinawan Karate has links to other Fujian White Crane).

The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

This is not some sort of "Crane Karate". Nor is it "Hakutsuru". This is the real art.

And from:

To me, Shuri-Te based karate bears more resemblance to Northern systems than the Southern ones we are always told about. There are influences from both, of course, but I think the Northern influence is stronger.

Remember the Te... The Okinawans had their own native art before melding with the Kung-Fu techniques to make To-Te / Tote / Tode (take your pick of romanticized dictation of the word). It wasn't known / labeled as "Karate" until the modern era. Karate without Te is just the Okinawans' version of Kung-Fu... with Te, Okinawan Karate is their own thing.

[Kuma]

After watching this video of what seems to be the evolution of Sanchin kata, it's hard for me to believe there was not a link somehow along the way.

[CredoTe]

After watching this video of what seems to be the evolution of Sanchin kata, it's hard for me to believe there was not a link somehow along the way.

(Web link redacted by CredoTe)

Great find, great share! The side-by-side-by-side-by-side comparison certainly evinces a connection of Sanchin to Fujian White Crane, no? "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck..." Alas, Sanchin is not a part of the Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu) system of which I am a practitioner, but I am familiar with it through many observances at seminars, tourneys, Internet, etc...

[Patrick]

Hello,

Unfortunately, we removed a post from this thread in error. I apologize for the trouble. Please find the post below.

Thanks,

Patrick

A - I believe you are wrong, yes Karate's forms of sanchin do not match exactly to the Chinese originals. My view on this , the Okinawan's were only taught to a very basic level. Plus the effects of time and a change in the aim of it's practice etc.

B - There is ample evidence for this link, just look at the 'Bubishi' as well as the video posted. Plus ample research by very credible martial artists.

C - I strongly suspect 'baiheshifu' to be shifu Ron Goninan of Australian. Someone whose credibility has been questioned and proved wanting many times over many years !

baiheshifu : I await your reply.