Are The Mechanics In Place?

[sensei8]

Since the advent of the MA, no matter the genre, many of the founders, of either a style and/or its governing body, have passed away. Some, not all styles of the MA, have fared better than others, and in that, some styles have splintered, in some fashion or another, and some styles have faced their own mortality across the board.

Question(s)...

1) If your style has recently lost its founder, what's the immediate plans for its continuation?

2) In your honest opinion, will your style be fine when your founder passes away?

3) Will your style, in your honest opinion, splinter slightly or splinter a lot?

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board?

Depending on who one's asking, splintering and the like isn't a bad thing because more sound governing bodies emerge that provide greater betterment for its student body.

Death is unavoidable, and in that, founders sometimes forget to put into the mechanics of the details that create the future of said style of the MA. Many, many noted founders of either the said style or the said governing body are no longer with us and those noted MAists are reaching the end of their journey.

Has, for example, Kanazawa Sensei provided and established a more sound future for its student body? It's none of my business, but as a MAist, how we look at those around us, provides us a small picture of what not to do or what to do for when we're faced with it.

Your thoughts!!

[ps1]

1) If your style has recently lost its founder, what's the immediate plans for its continuation? There is no structure in place. I'm sure someone would try to take over and continue the group, but it would be unsuccessful in bringing in alot of people.

2) In your honest opinion, will your style be fine when your founder passes away? The style will be fine. All the head instructors are very well trained and know how to teach the art well. But the association would no longer exist

3) Will your style, in your honest opinion, splinter slightly or splinter a lot? Alot. We are the largest BJJ association in the world. We have schools from Virginia to Brazil to Japan and China. Other than the head of our association, very few other instructors travel to teach anywhere else. Everyone is too isolated from everyone else.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board? I will likely joint the IBJJF. They aren't a style, but a certifying body. This will keep my certifications up to date. For the rest, I will bring in instructors for seminars. That's how much of BJJ is learned anyway.

The biggest problem is our association is named after the person who's in charge of it. Let's call it Bob's BJJ association. So everyone in the association wants to train with Bob. Every gets their rank from Bob. When Bob dies...Everyone will go their separate ways. There's no structure beyond Bob. There were plans for Bob to join with another group of people to create an actual association with a hierarchy. But it never happened. So Bob's the man for now. When he's gone, the entire BJJ community will mourn, but his association will likely fall apart. There's no one under him who has even half the amount of experience he does.

Obviously names have been changed here.

[sensei8]

1) If your style has recently lost its founder, what's the immediate plans for its continuation? There is no structure in place. I'm sure someone would try to take over and continue the group, but it would be unsuccessful in bringing in alot of people.

2) In your honest opinion, will your style be fine when your founder passes away? The style will be fine. All the head instructors are very well trained and know how to teach the art well. But the association would no longer exist

3) Will your style, in your honest opinion, splinter slightly or splinter a lot? Alot. We are the largest BJJ association in the world. We have schools from Virginia to Brazil to Japan and China. Other than the head of our association, very few other instructors travel to teach anywhere else. Everyone is too isolated from everyone else.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board? I will likely joint the IBJJF. They aren't a style, but a certifying body. This will keep my certifications up to date. For the rest, I will bring in instructors for seminars. That's how much of BJJ is learned anyway.

The biggest problem is our association is named after the person who's in charge of it. Let's call it Bob's BJJ association. So everyone in the association wants to train with Bob. Every gets their rank from Bob. When Bob dies...Everyone will go their separate ways. There's no structure beyond Bob. There were plans for Bob to join with another group of people to create an actual association with a hierarchy. But it never happened. So Bob's the man for now. When he's gone, the entire BJJ community will mourn, but his association will likely fall apart. There's no one under him who has even half the amount of experience he does.

Obviously names have been changed here.

Excellent, sold post!! I thank you for your thoughts. I believe, even though it's sad to think about, you're hitting the nail right on its head.

I think Shindokan is solid across the board, even though it has it's obstacles here and there, like most any style has.

Ideas shouldn't pass away with the founder of the style and/or the governing body, but, it's always a possibility. The mindset of..."Don't worry, just train!" is fine but it also lends one to sweep the immediate problem(s) under the rug, and to wait until then is careless of the governing body, imho.

[DWx]

ITF TKD experienced all this in 2002 when Gen. Choi died and the politics are still in a state today in 2013.

There was a structure in place, there was (and is) a constitution and a set of by-laws, but various things happened and there are now 3 main groups that carry the ITF name and all claim to be the "real" ITF. On top of that there are now many independent ITF groups forming which are led by masters who want to be independent and free from the 3 ITF's and their politics. The result is a complete mess and it's hard to keep track of who is associated with who. It also very much weakens ITF TKD as a whole as there is no sharing of knowledge between the groups and they all have their own championships and seminars.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board?

Well I did continue All this began happening about a year into my TKD journey and to be honest it barely effects grass roots students. A lot probably have little understanding of which group they belong to and what that entails. Once you start getting to the point you want to travel to train and you want to compete internationally it starts to become a problem. Often masters and teachers who belong to one ITF don't fully acknowledge those that belong to another. Or at least if you complete a course or grade with one group it means squat to another group. And in terms of competition, with 3 World Championships going on and subsequently 3 "national squads" per country, competition standards are somewhat diluted compared to what they could be.

It's all quite sad really as the General had always hoped to see WTF unite with ITF and also South Korea unite with North Korea yet his own organisation and legacy completely fractured upon his death and there is very little hope of the ITF ever unifying.

[tallgeese]

I look at this from a couple of different angles. As being very active in BJJ currently, I'm part of a large organization. However, as a smaller school that's not hyper-competitive, it really doesn't effect me all that much.

The art will be fine, it's wide spread and overseen by several "organizations" and it's too big to be owned by a single entity. I've never really cared enough about politics beyond the local level when it comes to MA. As long as I have someone to train with I'll be fine. Should the national (and international) level organization disappear I'll go to whatever my immediate coach does. I'm not worried beyond that.

On the other front, looking at it from my karate background, I come out of a much smaller, regional level organization that has since really gone defunct. I still hold rank under my senseis in the arts I learned there, and haven't worried about it much past that. I've even promoted one individual to black belt after 5 years of study under the auspices of my instructor. That's about all the worry I've put into it.

I'm more concerned with passing knowledge on to the next generation than any sort of organization. I hope that it does change. I hope that each individual I have a hand in training learns what I have to teach and makes the art their own, modifying it to their needs and situation and adding what they might learn beyond me.

[sensei8]

ITF TKD experienced all this in 2002 when Gen. Choi died and the politics are still in a state today in 2013.

There was a structure in place, there was (and is) a constitution and a set of by-laws, but various things happened and there are now 3 main groups that carry the ITF name and all claim to be the "real" ITF. On top of that there are now many independent ITF groups forming which are led by masters who want to be independent and free from the 3 ITF's and their politics. The result is a complete mess and it's hard to keep track of who is associated with who. It also very much weakens ITF TKD as a whole as there is no sharing of knowledge between the groups and they all have their own championships and seminars.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board?

Well I did continue All this began happening about a year into my TKD journey and to be honest it barely effects grass roots students. A lot probably have little understanding of which group they belong to and what that entails. Once you start getting to the point you want to travel to train and you want to compete internationally it starts to become a problem. Often masters and teachers who belong to one ITF don't fully acknowledge those that belong to another. Or at least if you complete a course or grade with one group it means squat to another group. And in terms of competition, with 3 World Championships going on and subsequently 3 "national squads" per country, competition standards are somewhat diluted compared to what they could be.

It's all quite sad really as the General had always hoped to see WTF unite with ITF and also South Korea unite with North Korea yet his own organisation and legacy completely fractured upon his death and there is very little hope of the ITF ever unifying.

Excellent post and I thank you for it.

Paths change when the new replaces the old. Politics? Yes/No, depending ones point of view and whom one asks. The new administration might have always wanted to do something different, and therefore, they do just that.

Strive, confusion, and sometimes just ding-a-ling attitudes stop the necessary evolution of any governing body, and the student body suffers from the outset soon as all of the dust finally does clear, if it ever does.

The student body is at the mercy or the lack thereof from those who run the whole show.

Imho.

[sensei8]

I look at this from a couple of different angles. As being very active in BJJ currently, I'm part of a large organization. However, as a smaller school that's not hyper-competitive, it really doesn't effect me all that much.

The art will be fine, it's wide spread and overseen by several "organizations" and it's too big to be owned by a single entity. I've never really cared enough about politics beyond the local level when it comes to MA. As long as I have someone to train with I'll be fine. Should the national (and international) level organization disappear I'll go to whatever my immediate coach does. I'm not worried beyond that.

On the other front, looking at it from my karate background, I come out of a much smaller, regional level organization that has since really gone defunct. I still hold rank under my senseis in the arts I learned there, and haven't worried about it much past that. I've even promoted one individual to black belt after 5 years of study under the auspices of my instructor. That's about all the worry I've put into it.

I'm more concerned with passing knowledge on to the next generation than any sort of organization. I hope that it does change. I hope that each individual I have a hand in training learns what I have to teach and makes the art their own, modifying it to their needs and situation and adding what they might learn beyond me.

Solid post and I thank you for it.

As I was just telling Danielle, the student body is always at the mercy or the lack thereof and this is usually because of politics, both local/regional and national. The trickle down will usually seep through the most unknown cracks, and that's when the betterment of the student body suffers eventually where one doesn't want it to.

Small or large dojo's have to succumb to the governing body one way or another. Or, start a governing body of their own. I believe this to be true, but not for certain because I'm not privy to the on-goings of every governing body.

I, like you, am more concerned with passing knowledge onto the next generation and encouraging them to free themselves from the bindings that bind them for the moment.

Still, thank you for your post!!

[Wastelander]

Since the advent of the MA, no matter the genre, many of the founders, of either a style and/or its governing body, have passed away. Some, not all styles of the MA, have fared better than others, and in that, some styles have splintered, in some fashion or another, and some styles have faced their own mortality across the board.

This is a very interesting topic! I actually just posted about this on another forum, because my style is going through something like this at the moment.

1) If your style has recently lost its founder, what's the immediate plans for its continuation?

--My style was founded by Chibana Chosin, who died in 1969, and there was a lot of splintering that occurred at that time. The organization I am currently a part of was made to be a continuation of Chibana's style, although it is sometimes referred to as a separate style, much to the disdain of the head of the organization. In that regard, the head of our "style" has been Nakazato Shugoro for a very, very long time (since 1971, I think?). He officially retired a few weeks ago, at the age of 93, and handed over the organization to his son, Nakazato Minoru.

2) In your honest opinion, will your style be fine when your founder passes away?

--I believe it will be, and I suspect that Nakazato Shugoro's reasoning for handing it over to his son while he is still alive is because he wanted everyone to get used to the idea before he passes away. Too many styles have had founders or heads die without cementing the next leader in place. That's a major factor in splintering, I think.

3) Will your style, in your honest opinion, splinter slightly or splinter a lot?

--So far, no one has broken away because of the leadership change, but I suspect there will be some splintering when Nakazato Shugoro does pass away. Nakazato Minoru looks like he is going to be moving the system in a good direction, but I could see some people who have been training longer than him, or who feel he isn't being true to his father's vision, breaking off on their own. Minoru Sensei is a little young for a Judan and head of a system, and seems to be more interested in sharing kata applications and drills than his father was, so those things might set some people off.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board?

--The organization of our style doesn't really concern me. I didn't start training with my sensei because he was part of a major branch of Shorin-Ryu headquartered in Okinawa with a "pure lineage" or any other such thing. I started training with him because he seemed very knowledgeable, and his mindset regarding karate was very much like my own. As long as I can keep learning from my instructor, I will be part of the style, at least in some fashion.

[bushido_man96]

1) If your style has recently lost its founder, what's the immediate plans for its continuation?

Not happened yet. I think we have a bit of time before this happens, but you never know what can happen.

2) In your honest opinion, will your style be fine when your founder passes away?

Hard to say. There are several high ranking individuals, but there is also some family members that might try to have a say, although they aren't ranked as high as some of the other current instructors.

3) Will your style, in your honest opinion, splinter slightly or splinter a lot?

There is a chance it could splinter quite a bit. There is a group of instructors in it that have some high standards, and do a lot of chatting back and forth and corroborating. They are also the higher ranks in the organization.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board?

I will likely continue under my current instructor, because I know he has good standards and teaches well, regardless of what would happen within the organization. I respect the GM of our org, but I only see him twice a year maybe, but see my current instructor everyday.

[sensei8]

Since the advent of the MA, no matter the genre, many of the founders, of either a style and/or its governing body, have passed away. Some, not all styles of the MA, have fared better than others, and in that, some styles have splintered, in some fashion or another, and some styles have faced their own mortality across the board.

This is a very interesting topic! I actually just posted about this on another forum, because my style is going through something like this at the moment.

1) If your style has recently lost its founder, what's the immediate plans for its continuation?

--My style was founded by Chibana Chosin, who died in 1969, and there was a lot of splintering that occurred at that time. The organization I am currently a part of was made to be a continuation of Chibana's style, although it is sometimes referred to as a separate style, much to the disdain of the head of the organization. In that regard, the head of our "style" has been Nakazato Shugoro for a very, very long time (since 1971, I think?). He officially retired a few weeks ago, at the age of 93, and handed over the organization to his son, Nakazato Minoru.

2) In your honest opinion, will your style be fine when your founder passes away?

--I believe it will be, and I suspect that Nakazato Shugoro's reasoning for handing it over to his son while he is still alive is because he wanted everyone to get used to the idea before he passes away. Too many styles have had founders or heads die without cementing the next leader in place. That's a major factor in splintering, I think.

3) Will your style, in your honest opinion, splinter slightly or splinter a lot?

--So far, no one has broken away because of the leadership change, but I suspect there will be some splintering when Nakazato Shugoro does pass away. Nakazato Minoru looks like he is going to be moving the system in a good direction, but I could see some people who have been training longer than him, or who feel he isn't being true to his father's vision, breaking off on their own. Minoru Sensei is a little young for a Judan and head of a system, and seems to be more interested in sharing kata applications and drills than his father was, so those things might set some people off.

4) Will you want to continue in your style if the splintering isn't kept to its minimal OR will you seek training in another style that's more grounded across the board?

--The organization of our style doesn't really concern me. I didn't start training with my sensei because he was part of a major branch of Shorin-Ryu headquartered in Okinawa with a "pure lineage" or any other such thing. I started training with him because he seemed very knowledgeable, and his mindset regarding karate was very much like my own. As long as I can keep learning from my instructor, I will be part of the style, at least in some fashion.

Solid post and I thank you for it!!

You've made some solid points. Especially concerning the way your governing body has made the future for its student body solid. The way your governing body makes the hiearchy transitions, and as early as they have, is how, imho, a governing body should providing the founder hasn't passed away in an untimely manner.

Our Dai-Soke's untimely death took us all by surprise to say the least. We scrambled quickly, but not before our San Dai-Soke pulled the rug from right under us.

Again, I thank you for your post!!