Am I in a cult?

[Bruce001]

I am grateful for all the responses to my other post about the lack of take downs in my school (http://www.karateforums.com/did-nagamine-strip-shorin-ryu-of-locks-takedowns-vt44979.html). I've almost convinced myself to return to class. Nevertheless, I have some other reservations that you guys can surely help me with.

After reading Marc MacYoung's website (http://www.karateforums.com/did-nagamine-strip-shorin-ryu-of-locks-takedowns-vt44979.html) I'm concerned that my school of karate might actually be a cult. I thought I'd do a reality check you guys first.

Problems I see...

• My Yon-Kyu certificate was signed by a man whose been dead for about 11 years.
   
  While we take time to bow to the shinden, we often hear about the leader of our school, for which the whole system is named and how he made such great sacrifices to bring the art to us.
   
  Said leader is memorized in a style similar to depictions I see of the Buddha. (Again, he's been dead for about 11 or 12 years.)
   
  From at least one of my instructors, there is a lot of talk about ancient masters, and all kinds of mystical/spiritual stuff.
   
  Fact checking the claims about ancient masters does not pan out.
   
  The whole art seems to be about spiritual development, not actual combat skills. This may be why I've had enough problems to ask whether or not Matsubayashi Ryu had been stripped of take down moves.
   
  Very high emphasis on tradition, to the point that it seems a little much.
   
  Revealed or superior teachings.

These are just some of the things I see that could be red flags for this group. In fact, this particular school that meets at the local YMCA seems to fail all the criteria I read about when googling how to pick a martial arts school. Pity, I love kata and I've enjoyed doing it with them. Frankly, it's just getting a little weird though.

I'd love to write more and will happily do so if anyone wants to help me process this. But, given the depth of the answers to my last post, this seems like a good place for a reality check.

Many thanks in advance! You guys have helped me on my journey.

[RJCKarate]

Hi Bruce,

It sound like you're practicing Matsubayashi-ryu - if I'm wrong, this might not be as relevant, but I practice it as well.

It can often be common in traditional karate schools to leave the founder's signature on certificates to show that you are still going on the original way. My dojo has a shomen with pictures and some tributes, but we bow to them because of what they've taught us, rather than religious reasons.

At my dojo, I teach a holistic approach to karate-do, included personal development. However, we do not engage in anything mystical.

As for lineage, feel free to check out my website in my signature, or matsubayashi-ryu.com, the Okinawa association website.

If you can give us a website or info on your dojo, I'm sure people on this board could provide a moor informed opinion. If you are matsubayashi-ryu and you'd like an onion on your dojo, and don't want to give the details publicly, gel free to inbox me.

Sorry for any typos, as I'm on my phone.

Regards,

[Wastelander]

Did they really give you a yonkyu certificate "signed" by Nagamine Shoshin? He died in 1997, but I'm guessing that is who you mean? I would be contacting the WMKA Honbu dojo, run by Nagamine Takayoshi, to find out what is going on with that. No one should be getting certificates from someone who isn't alive to sign them.

Showing respect for, and telling stories about, major figures in your lineage is not unusual at all. It does sound like your instructor has a case of hero worship, though, and an obsession with mysticism shows a distorted sense of reality and lack of practical experience.

Many of the stories you hear or read regarding ancient masters of just about any martial art are going to be difficult to verify. Many times, there simply never were written records about them, and other times those records have been destroyed over the years. Stories that sound too amazing to be true have probably just been added to and exaggerated over time, but likely contain some grain of truth. I try to find multiple sources of the same story, each of which will be a bit different, and try to use the parts they have in common to get a sense of the truth.

Personal development and strong adherence to tradition without concern for practicality are perfectly fine, if that's what you want out of your training. That may be what the instructor wants out of his training, so that's the way he teaches. It isn't my kind of karate, but it fits some people just fine, so I can't put it down too much.

I'm not sure what you mean by "revealed or superior teachings" unless that refers to things that are kept secret from you--that you are not allowed to learn--until you have reached a certain level. Sometimes that is a skill level, sometimes it is a rank, and sometimes it is a loyalty/devotion level. The first one doesn't bother me much, the second one seriously irritates me, and the third one is definitely cult-like.

I can't say for certain whether your school is a cult or not. From the sounds of it, your instructor certainly acts like a bit of a martial arts cultist, himself, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is trying to make all of his students into cultists. That's something you really have to judge in person. Still, what you have described definitely sets off warning bells for me, and I would not be training with them. In the end, though, it's your decision.

[RJCKarate]

Just an important note, but the WMKA Honbu Dojo is actually run by Kaicho Yoshitaka Taira. Sensei Takayoshi Nagamine unfortunately passed away in April 2012. Also, there may be no point contacting the WMKA if you belong to a different group (Ota or Frank Grant, for example). But visit the site I said earlier, if their dojo isn't listed, there probably not affiliated.

Regards,

[ShoriKid]

I am grateful for all the responses to my other post about the lack of take downs in my school (http://www.karateforums.com/did-nagamine-strip-shorin-ryu-of-locks-takedowns-vt44979.html). I've almost convinced myself to return to class. Nevertheless, I have some other reservations that you guys can surely help me with.

A point at a time I suppose.

After reading Marc MacYoung's website (http://www.karateforums.com/did-nagamine-strip-shorin-ryu-of-locks-takedowns-vt44979.html) I'm concerned that my school of karate might actually be a cult. I thought I'd do a reality check you guys first.

Marc MacYoung is a man that operates on the high end of practicality, application and violence. He isn't a karate guy, or a bjj guy or any other style. He has plenty of problems with almost all of them.

problems I see...

• My Yon-Kyu certificate was signed by a man whose been dead for about 11 years.

His signature or his chop/mark? If it's his stamp, that is the home dojo carrying the originator's name forward as a sign they are the "real" Matsubayashi Ryu.

While we take time to bow to the shinden, we often hear about the leader of our school, for which the whole system is named and how he made such great sacrifices to bring the art to us.

You are bothered by a school of martial arts talking about the originator and how much work they did to form and make a fighting style from a small island a world wide art? Look, find an organization who doesn't talk about who started them and how great they are and their accomplishments and I'll find you a sad group. The Girls Scouts come to mind right off (since my wife is a troop leader) or a group that talks about everything the person starting them did great things.

Said leader is memorized in a style similar to depictions I see of the Buddha. (Again, he's been dead for about 11 or 12 years.)

Are you talking about the picture of Nagamine Shoshin in formal dress and seated formally, for a formal picture, that will hang in a lot of Matsubayashi Ryu dojos? Or something else? Because, honestly I'm missing the point of this...point.

From at least one of my instructors, there is a lot of talk about ancient masters, and all kinds of mystical/spiritual stuff.
 
Fact checking the claims about ancient masters does not pan out.

There are more wild stories about ancient martial artists floating around than you can shake a stick at. They run rapidly into tall tale territory too. A lot of people like to tell those stories. Unless you are being told they could fly, and that you will learn to do so too if you only stick with your training long enough I wouldn't be too concerned. Compound this with a time period of little record keeping and major destruction during WW II, along with cultural repression by the Japanese, you won't find a lot of records.

The whole art seems to be about spiritual development, not actual combat skills. This may be why I've had enough problems to ask whether or not Matsubayashi Ryu had been stripped of take down moves.

Spiritual growth, the Do side of Matsubayashi Ryu Karate Do comes from hard work and sweat. Have you looked in the back of Nagamine Sensei's book? Are those guys lifting weights doing so to get spiritually buff? I've only gotten to be in a handful of Matsubayashi schools, and haven't trained actively in on in about ten years(My instructor retired due to injury). However, none of them were afraid to punch you in the face, kick you in the body and throw you on the floor. You were worried about lack of take downs in Matsubayashi Ryu. I would point you to Mr. Frank Grant's Matsubayashi group. I know with his age he isn't likely to be teaching hands on quite as much any more, but I can tell you from personal experience he uses grappling, locking and take down work with Matsubayashi Ryu. If not, I still want to know how I ended up being choked while he stood on my calf after I tried to punch him in the nose.

Very high emphasis on tradition, to the point that it seems a little much.

And you can find the same thing in Shotokan, Wado, Goju etc., etc. The level of "tradition" will depend on the dojo you are in and the instructor you have.

Revealed or superior teachings.

This can very much be a matter of skill, experience and rank. I have application for the Naihanchi kata (from Matsubayashi Ryu) that I don't teach to lower belts. Partly because of the level of complication, the control needed to practice it safely and practically, and partly because of the time. When I get to know you and your personality, I will know if this is something I trust you not to abuse. And, I'm not teaching something that can cause serious harm in the dojo, let alone at speed, to a 15 year old who I've known for a couple of months.

These are just some of the things I see that could be red flags for this group. In fact, this particular school that meets at the local YMCA seems to fail all the criteria I read about when googling how to pick a martial arts school. Pity, I love kata and I've enjoyed doing it with them. Frankly, it's just getting a little weird though.

I'd love to write more and will happily do so if anyone wants to help me process this. But, given the depth of the answers to my last post, this seems like a good place for a reality check.

Many thanks in advance! You guys have helped me on my journey.

I'm not trying to attack you here, just going into each point. A lot of what you are worried about is the difference between a well established, formal dojo with a strong link back to it's lineage, and a smaller, very likely a much younger, less established dojo/group. Some of it is also down to personal teaching style and working within a small group. Matsubayashi Ryu, as I was trained, involved working your way through a very well laid out progression in training. You learn 1,2,3 and a,b,c before you get to 4,5,6 and d,e,f. You don't just jump to 23 and z4. Nagamine Shoshin was very well respected in our dojo, you learned about his biography and had to know some of those details if asked. You would be punched in the face, learned basic, karate style take downs from kata and you would leave sweat prints on the floor when you hit the deck and got up.

I would be more worried about intrusions into my personal life. Iron clad contracts that are multiple years long. Guaranteed promotions on a schedule, requiring that you attend outside of dojo events that do not relate to karate as part of your promotions. Absolute subservience demanded in the dojo, being shouted down or ridiculed for asking any sort of question. Those are the things that I would look out for. But, in the end only you have control over your martial journey. If you want a less formal setting, a loser connection to an organization and a more open teaching format and program, Matsubayashi Ryu may not be for you. At least not in this dojo and if you are going to continue training you will have to be happy with what you do. If not, you won't last long.

[Wastelander]

Just an important note, but the WMKA Honbu Dojo is actually run by Kaicho Yoshitaka Taira. Sensei Takayoshi Nagamine unfortunately passed away in April 2012. Also, there may be no point contacting the WMKA if you belong to a different group (Ota or Frank Grant, for example). But visit the site I said earlier, if their dojo isn't listed, there probably not affiliated.

Regards,

Thanks for that information! Being from a different branch of Shorin-Ryu, I don't really keep up to speed on the organizational goings-on of the other branches, although I generally know at least a bit about the major people involved. I didn't know that Takayoshi passed away--that is very unfortunate.

[sensei8]

Are you in a cult?

Not from what I've read and not from what you've posted.

Train as though your life depended on it!!

[Bruce001]

Thanks so far, for your responses. Here are a few quick responses.

First, I'm relieved to hear that other dojos have stories of their founders. That tells me this group isn't that far out.

Second, the part about the dead founder's signature is also refreshing. It is, of course, a stamped signature and not a handwritten one.

Third, while this group, with some legitimacy I think, claims to be in the style of Matsubayashi Ryu, they are not affiliated with Mr. Nagamine's organization. I do not want to name the organization publicly because I'm concerned that my reservations about the organization have more to do with my perception of things than reality. (Which is why I'm doing a reality check with you guys.) I would hate to see this group labelled forever out in cyberspace simply because I had misgivings; especially if they are uninformed misgivings.

Finally, I appreciate the notion that I may have a cult like instructor and that he/she may not be representative of the whole organization. This is a possibility I'm seriously considering.

I'm still processing all this and appreciate your input.

Again, thank you for helping me on my journey.

[ninjanurse]

Finally, I appreciate the notion that I may have a cult like instructor and that he/she may not be representative of the whole organization. This is a possibility I'm seriously considering.

I suppose I can be accused of cult-ish behavior myself as I am extremely passionate about the system I trained in and am always talking about the Founders & my Master Instructors as their impact on my life was so profound.

[mal103]

It is difficult for an instructor to get across how they feel about Karate to their students, just telling them to train hard and hoping they get it eventually will work with most, some students you can see yourself a few years back so are willing them along to train harder!

It's also easy to mention how hard you trained to get where you are or exagerate how hard your Sensei trains or trained - or how hard the Sensei's Sensei trained to get where they were.... etc etc

If I were you then I would just get on and train, if you don't like them later on then move Dojo/org.