No blocks in Karate?

[xo-karate]

to block or not to block?

First in kar ate are techniques that you practise. If you repeat your blocks enough, you have blocks or you can use the movement for a counter attack.

I've been disqualified for a too strong block -it was interpreted as an attack.

My point is that you have the movement if you work for it.

Should you use it, is a different issue. In sparring I've noticed that not blocking in karate is effective - or just sliding opponents arm as countering. On the other hand blocking boxers may mess up there balance - It was a new experience. In self defence you may have to use strong blocks as your opponent might have a stick or other kind of weapon.

so you can use blocks as attacks and attacks as blocks.

[infinitehand]

I'm glad to get so many replies so quickly!

I do feel Karate is an extension of our natural response. It's like going straight long enough to end up where you were.

I don't think anyone in a "real" situation, would step and rising block a punch to the face. By the time you stepped youre hit. By the time your hand crosses the other hand you're hit. Now if you just put one hand up there real quick sure you'll catch it, but that's not the technique is it? both hands are moving.

In the situations with the broom stick. I'm glad his Karate worked for him! That is what's important. But I doubt he stepped into a zenkutsu dachi, and pulled one hand back to his hip/chest. In reality he probably flung his hand up there as quick as possible ( out of a natural flinch reaction) and it was in the rising block position. Which still is awesome. As much as I hate "what if" scenarios you have to think would that still have worked against a bat? or a steel pipe? Did the broom stick injure him? Would a smarter attacker have used the broken end of the stick against him? I feel like your Karate should work in any situation.

As for the spin kicks to the head, I have a lot of experience with them and they're not that hard to counter when you get over the fear of being knocked out by them :/ I would probably use a gedan barai against it. There is a better technique in Shuri bases systems that have two open hand "blocking" at the end of one of the Pinan kata, I believe you do this four times at fourty five degrees. but how can a low block defend against a high technique? Because you've put them there!

As for the question about the hand that comes back and how it doesn't make sense. It's called hikite, pulling or drawing hand, and it never comes back empty.

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

First of all, I m still new in the forum, so "Hi" everyone! Its a nice forum and I hope to learn and contribute something meaningful (sometimes at least).

Regarding the topic of blocks, infinitehand asked "What happens when you combine it with stepping or shifting." Thats a really good question. Lets look at Kata (the time vault of Karate techniques and, more important, of combat strategy). In most Kata of all the styles I know, "blocks" are combined with stepping forward. That is a clue. A clue of the ancient chinese/okinawese masters directly through time and space for us to see. A clue written in bold red letters, written at least in 72 pt. font size for the blind and deaf....

These "blocks" are no blocks. No sane person moves forward with a block.....and then turns away or completes the Kata. We don't see it in Kumite, or boxing, or anywhere else. Because it doesn't work.

Of course, there is the first hand, the flinch motion, that does the initial redirection of the incoming force. Then, the second "main" hand/arm (the official "block" pose shown in all those kata books) disbalances, controls or strikes. It could be a choke, or throw, too. Now, we have something that makes sense: (1) A natural flinch motion (motions towards the center of the body are always faster than outward motions: try it!) continued in one fluid motion with (2) the second arm (and body) that prevents further attacks through advantage of position or by damaging the attacker.

Examples: Sepai (Goju Ryu) That weird benzoku dachi uchi - age uke position just before the 270 degree turn in the middle of the kata. Well right, age uke while stepping forward and twisting yourself with the butt towards the attacker (**utter nonsense warning at this point**). If one performs a standard judo hip throw without partner -funny enough- it looks exactly the same: forward step into benzoku dachi, hands up to grab the opponent and all, including the 270 turn (the hip throw), at the end. Age Uke vs Hip Throw 0 : 1.

Examples: Heian Shodan (Shotokan). Stepping forward (3 times!) with Age Uke. Weird? Yes. If you took somebody small (more likely to be attacked in real life situation) and condition them to deflect (dodge?) an initial grab (a probable attack against a smaller person) and then run forward (screaming madly) into a larger attacker while pushing forward and continuously smashing their forearms upward into the attackers throat...It is a scary sight...A very similar thing happens at the end of Heian Nidan, too, and in Jion, and Wankan, and so on.... Age Uke vs. Throat Smashing (Haiwan Uchi) 0 : 1

Examples: Wado Ryu. Approximately everthing Iain Abernethy has posted in the web. Iain gives a thoughtful explanation for Shuto Uke as well - highly recommended!

[cheesefrysamurai]

wow - great answer Bahrain!

I like the way you break down the technique.

I have to reread it several times.

thanks

[DoctorQui]

There is a philosophy that all blocks in Karate are really strikes, and each one should end the fight there and then. But in my experience, you can block to lead into another technique. The Hikate, or reaction hand can block, strike or grab an opponent; for example, with Shuto Uchi on knife hand strike, common in most basic kata, there is a Haishu block with the back of the hand as you draw the front hand to your ear; then an open hand block with the rear hand before you strike (or block) with the front Shuto Te. This is what makes Karate such a wonderful discipline - the endless variation and field for interpretation. I wish you soft and hard blocks with strikes that follow or lead. Osu!

I think this is a very solid post! I would expand to say that not only are blocks in a sense, a strike, but they are also tools in setting up your opponent to exact maximum counter techniques eg, opening up the sternum, kidney or floating rib area! For me, the most unrealistic block is Age Uki, I don't think I have ever used it in sparring and it doesn't seem to do a lot!

As others have also said, particularly in styles like Shotokan, long deliberate blocking (and striking) techniques are there for training purposes only, you would never be expected to use a full training technique while sparring!

[Kusotare]

In Japanese Budo, they don't use the word "block". That's too terminal.

Instead, the word "uke" is used which means to receive.

As I teach my students - in combative situations, blocking and counter-punching rarely works. You have to be 3 times faster than your opponent for that!

That's why, in reality, there is no blocking in Karate.

K.

[sensei8]

In Japanese Budo, they don't use the word "block". That's too terminal.

Instead, the word "uke" is used which means to receive.

As I teach my students - in combative situations, blocking and counter-punching rarely works. You have to be 3 times faster than your opponent for that!

That's why, in reality, there is no blocking in Karate.

K.

Solid post!!

[mal103]

I have read somewhere that "response" was a more accurate translation instead of "block"?

The 3 Age ukes going forwards make more sense when you are using an arm grab/smash and leading up to a forearm smash to the face/throat.

Just a thought on blocking kicks - I always try to get out of the way rather than try to put my skinny arm in the way of a much more powerful limb.

Blocking kicks may work when sparring with someone who is tapping you but I suspect that if it was full speed/power then the last thing you would want to do is try and block it's path.

[ShoriKid]

When it's not almost midnight local and I can pull together two brain cells at a time I have a long response for this question. However, I'll start with something brief(ha!)

To address infinitehand's trouble that someone who used a rising block wasn't doing things right if they didn't drop into a deep front stance and pull the free hand to their hip. That's call the "No true Scotsman" argument. I can point to the fact that kata and actual conflict are not the same. One is in a sterile environment, the other happens in the wild. Funakoshi said something like kata is one thing, combat is another. He wasn't saying they aren't related, just to under stand one is perfect, the other is a mess.

Secondly, "blocks", "uke" however you want to term them are multifunctional once you understand the mechanics. Why would you block, moving forward, three times in a row? Is the attacker so persistent that they fail to hit three times and retreat at the same time? Hands are doing something coming and going. The angles are a lot softer and more subtle than people think about in most cases.

And, a ton of instructors are teaching blue belt karate over and over and over for students well past their black belt. They don't want to open up the movements for the students to look at what they can do because that takes time and effort and is tougher to teach. When you teach movement and let students look at them the take away is more. When we taught head lock/hip toss today (I'm sure there is proper Judo terminology for this, but I'm no Judoka so...) to the kid's class. My two advanced students, both 10/11 years old recognized the full throw from Heian Sandan's ending. Sharp kids, looking at movement and not yet old enough to be stuck in the mindset that a movement must only be it's name sake.

Like I said...brief.

[brickshooter]

In a self-defense situation, there is no one there to tell you to get ready. Very often it starts with the attacker putting his hand on you, whether he's about to throw you to the ground or grabbing you with one hand while he cocks his punching fist.

It is at this moment that a well time and painful "chopping" block is useful. One can break the arms at the elbows, apply an armbar, or deliver a rising elbow strike to the throat. And of course, one can also prevent the attacker from innitially laying his hands on you with a "block."

We often equate sparring with fighting. And we often make the mistake that a technique that doesn't work in sparing has no place in a real fight.