Dojo Disease

[bassaiguy]

I was teaching a small group yesterday practical self-defense applications from kata and traditional karate. I have one student who has a red belt in another style from a larger dojo in the area. His technique is usually pretty good. His application suffers sometimes, however, because he is too controlled. I see this a lot in students who have little practical experience, but good experience in the dojo, my nickname for this is dojo disease.

In this case I was instructing the student to push me like he meant it -like he was being a bully and wanted to dump me on the ground or shove me through the wall. He took one step, put his hands on my shoulders, pushed and stopped. I asked him to push again and he stepped in and faked a push off to one side of my body - no contact! I told him to push me like a football player would shove a blocking dummy and to keep pushing. Even after several tries my student had a difficult time making himself aggressively push.

Now, I'm not teaching pushing. What I wanted to demonstrate was evasion and response to common aggressive techniques, but without an active partner it is very hard to demonstrate effective defense. I know there is a time and place to passively practice techniques with a partner, but isn't there also a time and place to throw on some headgear and pressure test your techniques?

Why is it so hard to get my dojo trained students to buy into this?

[Harlan]

Different students, different reasons, different solutions.

1. As an older woman, I can tell you that some of us were brought up with a strict taboo on hitting and conditioned to passivity or non-physical aggression. I also think we have a whole generation of kids, male and female, that are disassociated with physical endeavors - and couldn't throw a punch if they tried.

2. Fear of repercussions/hitting too hard/lack of control makes for tentative start - but they get it after a few minutes.

3. Conditioned by too much time performing at that level of 'dojo training' where one-steps, line drills, etc. don't push them.

[pittbullJudoka]

Harlan hit the nail on the head with point #3. It seems most schools train with control all the time. This is great for the new student and when learning the steps of a given move. But once a certain level of training is reached the pressure should be ramped up. If it isn't if someone is really put in a spot they're not use to any realistic pressure. It's like trying to do a punch defense when your uke throw the punch six inches to your left or right.

But to answer the question the students are in the mind set of this is proper training speed and physically right.

[lowereastside]

I find that some students have a respect - of not wanting to hit the Teacher/Instructor. I had this problem with my Teacher - it took a while for me to get IT - with the program. I have all my students pressure test - even though all of my students have experience - some are not aggressive and others are to aggressive - which is fine - I just don't want a Hospital run. All I can do with my non-aggressive students is to keep reinforcing - one of my students - a good friend - and nice guy had this problem - From the other style he studied he was technically very good - but when I put him in front of my more aggressive students his techniques would fall apart - Not the fault of his original style - It was just him - being to nice - not aggressive enough. A Teacher must be able to help his students over come certain flaws - And I'm happy to say my student/friend was able to correct this problem - and today he gives as much as he gets. And he's still a nice guy

[mal103]

It is tricky, to me it depends on what they want from Karate, to aggressively display fixed Kumite is okay but it should go to the next level at some point.

I often get students to do 5 step but say forget about the exact position of feet etc, then stand closer together and if the partner doesn't move quick enough then punch him/her.

Do this quickly and then at full speed, it soon becomes an effective tool in evasion, speed etc.

[sensei8]

Different students, different reasons, different solutions.

1. As an older woman, I can tell you that some of us were brought up with a strict taboo on hitting and conditioned to passivity or non-physical aggression. I also think we have a whole generation of kids, male and female, that are disassociated with physical endeavors - and couldn't throw a punch if they tried.

2. Fear of repercussions/hitting too hard/lack of control makes for tentative start - but they get it after a few minutes.

3. Conditioned by too much time performing at that level of 'dojo training' where one-steps, line drills, etc. don't push them.

Solid post!!

[DWx]

I think this is a common thing. Especially for people who are taught from a young age to be non aggressive. Harlan hit the nail on the head IMHO. Especially on #2. Newbies especially don't seem to be able to trust themselves or trust you enough and they fear hurting someone. TBH martial artists are pretty unique in that we are crazy enough to invite people to punch us in the face and kick us in the gut and are willing to take the pain. In our classes I struggle must with getting younger females to hit me as they fear they might hurt me; no matter how many times you try to tell them you've been hit harder and survived.

I don't know it's the best method but I try to get people used to hitting something. Heavy bag or pads. And then try to progress from there.

[bushido_man96]

I think a lot of people just aren't that aggressive, and don't want to push others like that; it makes them feel uncomfortable. So its tough to get through that mindset.

[IcemanSK]

As Harlan & other pointed out, there may be many reasons for this guy's inability to give you the response you were looking for. I've often seen the role of Uke as needing to be an actor, in a way. It often amounts to "pretend your in a bar and I'm the guy you think did "X". Now, throw a punch at me." Most students aren't the kind of folks who can put themselves in that position quickly, if at all, & pretend they are that sort of person. (And, if ya think about it, that's a really good thing. A room full of folks who could do that would make me really nervous!)

Now add the fact that, as their instructor, we intimidate them a bit. They know that, as they push, or throw the punch (or, whatever) the result is them (and the room full of others) being shown why that's a bad idea. It would be hard to put much into it. After a numbers of years of trust, then that is more easily done.

My senior student trusts me now, but it took a few years before he would really give me what I want him to do.

[The Greatest Disciple]

I thought this was going to be a ringworm thread for sure.

Anyway, I used to have the same issue. Sport Karate kind of robbed my power because I was in the habit of pulling my punches. It took me a solid year to be able to turn it on and off naturally.

I now fight full contact and for points. I have no trouble going back and fourth. It takes time to learn, but you have to consciously think about it or your self-defense training will be useless.