Did Nagamine strip Shorin Ryu of locks/takedowns?

[Harkon72]

I don't know what focus this style of Shorin Ryu has, but our style as taught by Sensei Rikishi Oya still encourages throws, locks and takedowns. I have no idea why they would be omitted.

[bushido_man96]

Like others have mentioned, its likely the instructor didn't learn those ways, and therefore is only teaching what he knows. His response does sound as though he may have been a bit closed-minded, but some people are. It sounds like since he won't offer what you want to learn, that moving on may be the way to go. Best of luck in your search.

[Kusotare]

Kata geiko has stages in terms of learning and development and of course, some kata are purely educational - whereas others are more directly combative.

On the grand scheme of things, you have been training for 5 minutes really, so I wouldn't automatically assume that yourinstructor is trying to deceive you.

At first (and when I mean at first I mean for the first 2-3 years perhaps) it is right that you only learn the "Omote" or external form of the kata. They exist to transmit core principles of movement (not techniques per-se).

Later (and I mean way later), you have what is called the "Ura" kata. This is the deeper understanding or more complex variations designed to extract additional (sometimes obscure) principles.

Then you have "Henka" waza, which are the variations in techniques and application.

You can’t get to fully appreciate the Henka waza until you have internalised the "Omote" of the kata.

Furthermore, you can't unlock the "Ura" of the kata until you have internalised the Henka waza, and then the Ura waza is only usually transmitted by word of mouth to the most senior and most trusted of students.

So in summary:

One step at a time and trust your instructor.

K.

[bushido_man96]

I don't think it necessarily has to take all that long, though. Some people like for things to draw out for years like that, and I think that's ok, if that's what they want. But I don't think it has to be that long. There is always a lot of talk about the "deep understanding" that is gained with so many years in training. I think there is value there, but not at the expense of finding other meanings in the training.

Nor am I espousing a "microwave popcorn method" of learning in the Martial Arts. But I do think that it is important to give students more than just the face value of a form early on, in order to benefit them in self-defense situations. I also believe its important to evaluate each student, gauge where they are, and bring the along accordingly, and not just along as a whole class. Everyone learns differently, and at different paces, and its important to recognize that and alter teaching protocols accordingly.

I'm sure there's a bit here we will butt heads on, but, hey, that's ok. I look forward to your response.

[Kusotare]

I don't think it necessarily has to take all that long, though. Some people like for things to draw out for years like that, and I think that's ok, if that's what they want. But I don't think it has to be that long. There is always a lot of talk about the "deep understanding" that is gained with so many years in training. I think there is value there, but not at the expense of finding other meanings in the training.

Nor am I espousing a "microwave popcorn method" of learning in the Martial Arts. But I do think that it is important to give students more than just the face value of a form early on, in order to benefit them in self-defense situations. I also believe its important to evaluate each student, gauge where they are, and bring the along accordingly, and not just along as a whole class. Everyone learns differently, and at different paces, and its important to recognize that and alter teaching protocols accordingly.

I'm sure there's a bit here we will butt heads on, but, hey, that's ok. I look forward to your response.

I'm really not sure I have the energy lol.

I've explained my understanding of studying a kata based art over several threads and each time the response it is met with is - that approach is way too slow and doesn't show signs of being useful in terms of self defence.

Well kata is NOT self defence - it really isn’t full stop! (or period as you guys would say).

Interesting really that the few guys on this board that share my views are senior karate / Japanese ma guys.

Those that struggle are relative newbs (in terms of Japanese/Okinawan ma) or folk that don't train in a Japanese / Kata orientated art!

And that’s what is good about this board – as it hopefully breaks down some stereotypes / misunderstandings.

But the "microwave popcorn method" made me smile

K.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for that. I see from your posts a glimpse of the methodology you use. The one I try to use is a bit different, but that's ok.

[Bruce001]

Many thanks to all of you who've helped with this topic. Where am I?

On the one hand, disturbed by the fact that my instructor seemingly does not know much about the katas he teaches.

On the other hand, wanting to continue classes anyway because I like the katas and am less inclined to be turned off by the fact that I might not learn all there is to know about karate.

I'm still on the fence, in large part because of this issue, but also because of a growing concern that my school, which meets at the local YMCA, might actually be a cult. I've placed by question to that in a separate post. But this seems to be the next thing I have to grapple with.

Again, many thanks, you guys are moving me along splendidly.

[sensei8]

Kata geiko has stages in terms of learning and development and of course, some kata are purely educational - whereas others are more directly combative.

On the grand scheme of things, you have been training for 5 minutes really, so I wouldn't automatically assume that yourinstructor is trying to deceive you.

At first (and when I mean at first I mean for the first 2-3 years perhaps) it is right that you only learn the "Omote" or external form of the kata. They exist to transmit core principles of movement (not techniques per-se).

Later (and I mean way later), you have what is called the "Ura" kata. This is the deeper understanding or more complex variations designed to extract additional (sometimes obscure) principles.

Then you have "Henka" waza, which are the variations in techniques and application.

You can’t get to fully appreciate the Henka waza until you have internalised the "Omote" of the kata.

Furthermore, you can't unlock the "Ura" of the kata until you have internalised the Henka waza, and then the Ura waza is only usually transmitted by word of mouth to the most senior and most trusted of students.

So in summary:

One step at a time and trust your instructor.

K.

Very solid post!!

[Bruce001]

Another thought, building off the post above, that has entered my mind is the notion that progress in Asian martial arts is measured in decades, not years.

I'm not sure where I originally heard that idea, but seeing explanations of the different levels of kata interpretation brings it to mind again.

I need to realize that effort spent on karate now will likely pay off when I'm in my 70's.

Karate is indeed a lifelong marathon. So it seems as if taking a few months off to get my bearings and sort some of this stuff out isn't a bad thing.

[Harkon72]

No, please don't damn Shorin Ryu. This teaching gave me the richest foundation for my martial arts career, Shorin Ryu is the grandfather of Kaiokoshin Kai, and the father of Shotokan.