Did Nagamine strip Shorin Ryu of locks/takedowns?

[Bruce001]

I've been training in a style of Matsubayashi Ryu for about six months. Recently, I had a Goju Ryu instructor show me how he interprets the katas. (I'll never view a down block the same way again.)

I approached my sensei about this and he rather stringently denied that there was anything hidden in the katas. That left me wondering if he was being dishonest with me (not necessarily for nefarious reasons) or if he simply didn't know the take downs involved.

This leads me to a question that only you guys can answer: Does Matsubayashi Ryu have any joint locks or take downs? Was it perhaps Nagamine's plan to remove them for some reason? Are they concealed to all but the most trusted students?

I'm still stunned over the Goju Ryu instructor's demonstration. I'm questioning whether or not I want to study karate either with a sensei who may or may not know the grappling aspects of the art, or with a sensei in another system that teaches pure self defense.

In the mean time, I appreciate any insights you guys have.

Thanks!

Bruce

[ShoriKid]

A takedown from a low block like the turning throws found in the fyukyukata series? They were pointed out to me by my first instructor, David Mason sensei back in the mid 90's. There are applications beyond the "literal" way the techniques work. Takayoshi Nagamine gave a very brief example with a low block acting as a deflection and strike to the thigh or kidney in the Matsubayashi Ryu kata videos. So there is some applications that don't come into play in the open. Also, recall that Nagamine Shoshin was a Judoka in addition to his karate training. His instructors were known for close range fighting, something that inevitably leads to the need for locking and throwing. So, the elements are there, just some instructors don't chose to emphasize them. And, you may not be getting that part of your training yet since you are still pretty young in your training.

[andym]

I think the problem is (sadly) with your instructor, rather than with Nagamine. I study Goju Ryu, all the Shorin Ryu I've encountered have worked in exactly the same way as we do, just with different kata. Any differences were of emphasis rather than principle.

[RJCKarate]

I believe that there are plenty of applications in Matsubayashi-ryu Karate. The Okinawan sensei I have trained with have always made a point that Karate is about real application, and not just doing a pattern, otherwise, you might as well do Ryukyu dance. Often though, instructors do leave the teaching of said applications to higher grades - whether that is a good or bad thing is another topic completely.

I hope you stick out your time with Matsubayashi-ryu and that the applications are taught in your dojo. Perhaps ask your sensei about application, and when or whether it is taught.

[Bruce001]

I think the problem is (sadly) with your instructor, rather than with Nagamine.

I've had some serious reservations about my instructor.

While this exchange happened via email, he was very emphatic that there was nothing hidden in the kata. He even promised that if I stuck with the program, I would learn multiple strikes and blocks.

His reply was of such a tone that, when I showed it to my wife, she freaked out and said he responded like a cult devotee whose world view had been shattered. I've since googled martial arts cults and, suffice it to say, the results don't look good.

I haven't been back to class since. Frankly, his response spooked me. Perhaps that was his intention. Maybe I'm not worthy of the secret.

Then again, I'm not twelve and I live in a place where I can legally carry a firearm. Knowing a few joint maneuver's, or at least that they'll be taught at some point, shouldn't be too much to ask.

So I must wonder whether or not he even knows these moves, whether or not he's interested in having me as a student, or whether or not his game is preserving some kind of dojo culture, or even worse (weird cult).

[JasonW]

If you want to learn joint locks and such and they won't teach it to you, maybe it's time to find a new dojo? I study Isshin Ryu and though grappling is not a major part of it, there is some hidden in the katas which all stemmed from shorin ryu and Goju ryu.

[Wastelander]

Shorin-Ryu has plenty of applications for the kata beyond block-punch-kick karate--especially when you work with instructors who have cross-trained. It sounds like your instructor was never taught anything but block-punch-kick karate, and so he is passing on exactly what he was taught. Any student contradicting that is going to seem like they are insulting not only him, but his instructor and all of the years they dedicated to their training. That makes it a pretty touchy subject.

All-in-all, it doesn't sound like you and your instructor are really on the same page. It may be time to find a new instructor.

[andym]

It is all in the Kata , but it is NOT a secret Bruce001 . It isn't obvious, you need guiding etc, but that's is all. as I said before, the issue is the instructor. Don't damn Shorin Ryu because his lacks the ability or depth of understanding.

[Bruce001]

Don't damn Shorin Ryu because his lacks the ability or depth of understanding.

Thanks andym. It's not my intention to damn Shorin Ryu. In light of this thread, I've pretty much settled on the idea that the instructor is to blame. With that in mind, I'm weighing my options. I don't know where or what I'll train in. But I know it won't be with him anymore.

[kensei]

I would not freak about anything and in place of throwing in the towel, I would ask for details as to the instructor response. He may have had an "of day email" situation go left on him.

Truth is...their is nothing "hidden" in Kata...if you know how to look. When we start teaching people we do the basic "a block is a block is a block" stuff to not confuse them or spend WAY to much time on a single move. then as they go up in rank we "reveal" some little tid bits and help them find even more.

Can you imagine going to school as a five year old and having everything from elementry school to university drumped on you? It would scare the carp out of you!

I have been doing this almost 40 years now and I still have aha moments, have instructors show me something I have forgotten or a different point of view and I just shake my head and smile, this is what makes it worth while.

Dont lose heart over a bad answer, and truth be told it was not that bad, just a bit lacking.