Kihon Kata

[Kusotare]

Sorry if I'm sounding short. I'm afraid I have little patience the topic. Probably should have stayed out of it.

Welcome my world lol.

Your comments are right on the money as far as I can see - so please don't hang the gloves up just yet!

Unfortunaletly in a world where poeple want results straight away, the idea of a kata designed to embed core "principles" - over combative application is a difficult one to grasp for some.

K.

[todome]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

cheers!

[mal103]

I see nothing more in Kihon Kata than just teaching beginners how to do Kata, you can drill it with kick/block basics just to get beginners used to drilling.

I would match some of the Bunkai shown here with Heian Shodan but would still only show very basic techniques.

Later on you can revisit these Kata with more senior grades and start to show them different applications and principles.

By then you need people to get over the matching of Kata to other MA attacks, also things like having to step to the side and forwards and performing the perfect Gedan Barai - later on the principle should be more about twisting 90 degrees and pulling down to one side to put your attacker into a bad position, to stop them from hitting you with their other hand and also to allow you to strike back.

The biggest thing missing in Kata training seems to be drilling these techniques with partners and then non willing partners using more speed and power.

Just my take, I also liked the vid!

[DoctorQui]

The biggest thing missing in Kata training seems to be drilling these techniques with partners and then non willing partners using more speed and power.

I think you make a very valid point here! I couldn't agree more!

[sensei8]

While the video does demonstrate the most basic of possible applications, Bunkai, the video does lack important elements, i.e., hip movements and footwork. Had just those two elements been utilized, much more would've been accomplished with very little effort, and yes, much more effectiveness.

Yes, it was a learning/teaching video, thus the slowness and purposeful reasons, however, that would've been just an excuse. Yes, it was a demonstration of a possible bunkai, but not once was the application(s) done at full speed/power WITH the above elements utilized. Had it been so, the viewer might've seen the attackers relationship to the defender much more compact as well as seeing the defender keeping the compacted relationship with very little effort.

This, imho, is also a problem with learning bunkai; the "liveness" of the application, not just the resisting, as mal103 alluded to, but in the willingness of allowing the "liveness" to BE much more alive.

The video wouldn't have been shown at the Hombu because it would've been deemed as an incomplete demonstration, therefore ineffective.

[bushido_man96]

I think it is combat training. The movements are teaching you to move with a purpose, learning how to put power into movements with your body, etc. I do think oversimplification is a good thing, though. More complex does not equate to being better.

I didn't say it doesn't prepare you for combat. I said it isn't combat training.

Due to lack of a partner?

Sorry if I'm sounding short. I'm afraid I have little patience the topic. Probably should have stayed out of it.

Not because it doesn't have a partner. Rather because it is formal defense against formal attacks. The movements are chosen for their teaching value, not their effectiveness on the street. It's not meant to be scenario training. In the Shotokan syllabus scenario training is called "self defense", in English anyways, and is treated as something other than kihon, kata and kumite.

Ok, I see the point you are trying to make. However, I don't think the formal defense/attack pattern is the only there to be worked on. If you can dig more and find something else, then great. Maybe its stretching, and maybe it isn't, but it is facilitating the thought process, which is always a good thing.

[pers]

K.

nah. I'm talking about the bunkai it's trying to replace. IMO, it really is more than adequate. It's the movement skills preserved in the kata that really matters. Application is given to get the feeling of the movement across.

A lot of the modern bunkai seems to be more interested in describing scenarios that justify the kata's existence. That, to me, misses the point.

spot on ,kihon kata is primarily to teach students how to move and apply techniques such as block and punch .

lot of people overlook that fact and just think it is only gedan barai and oi zuki and think not much of it .

If one can master these movements and techniques that go with it then they can apply it in one step ,three step , five step kumite and then later in free flow kumite .

but it seems lot of people are in a hurry to jump in the deep end ,get that black belt round their waist and those dan grade certificates up their wall , you face them in kumite and they struggle to give you a purposeful punch to block and then when some one attack them with a powerful oi zuki chudan they wonder why they can not block it .

[JonWal]

I've only been doing Karate for 10 months and have learned the Kihon kata. Our Sensei tests us occasionally by substituting for example the Gedan Barai low block with an Age Uke head block and the Oi Zuki with a Maegeri. This obviously changes the bunkai applications, but its a good way of teaching a student to think on their feet.

[mal103]

At one point in time the Kihon Kata was split in 3, I think they had the same floor plan but all had various strikes/blocks.

If you learn them for years then you won't ever forget them but the modern western methods tend to get people through the early Kata with only a few months learning each one. They should be constantly sharpened as you continue training.

The biggest part of doing any Kata is to get pass the stage of having to think about the next move and to imagine yourself in mid battle - regardless of which move you are doing. Kata Kihon is the perfect Kata for training this mindset.

[JonWal]

At one point in time the Kihon Kata was split in 3, I think they had the same floor plan but all had various strikes/blocks.

If you learn them for years then you won't ever forget them but the modern western methods tend to get people through the early Kata with only a few months learning each one. They should be constantly sharpened as you continue training.

The biggest part of doing any Kata is to get pass the stage of having to think about the next move and to imagine yourself in mid battle - regardless of which move you are doing. Kata Kihon is the perfect Kata for training this mindset.

This hapenned to me in a grading actually, my mind went blank but my body just went through the Kata as usual like the many previous times i'd drilled it. I remember thinking to myself ' Damn, ive messed up, ...oh actually no, that was right!''

I believe for testing for Shodan with us, you are expected to perform each kata. Our motto is 'We leave nothing behind''