Kihon Kata

[Kusotare]

Kata is NOT combat training.

Well, it's not directly combative maybe - but it's a step on the way there, if you don't understand what you are doing, before you know it, you are heading in the wrong direction!

K.

[todome]

Kata is NOT combat training.

Well, it's not directly combative maybe - but it's a step on the way there, if you don't understand what you are doing, before you know it, you are heading in the wrong direction!

K.

Exactly. In which case the simplest explanation is the best and that would be the same old boring bunkai which this thread has put under the microscope.

[Kusotare]

Exactly. In which case the simplest explanation is the best and that would be the same old boring bunkai which this thread has put under the microscope.

If we are talking about the "Bunkai" demonstarted in the vid posted by the OP - as being a good "basic" example -I'd have to disagree.

K.

[todome]

Exactly. In which case the simplest explanation is the best and that would be the same old boring bunkai which this thread has put under the microscope.

If we are talking about the "Bunkai" demonstarted in the vid posted by the OP - as being a good "basic" example -I'd have to disagree.

K.

nah. I'm talking about the bunkai it's trying to replace. IMO, it really is more than adequate. It's the movement skills preserved in the kata that really matters. Application is given to get the feeling of the movement across.

A lot of the modern bunkai seems to be more interested in describing scenarios that justify the kata's existence. That, to me, misses the point.

[DoctorQui]

Every Karate-Ka studying Shotokan here under the KUGB are tought Kihon as the very first kata, a basic kata of 2 "basic" moves - gedan-bari and oi-zuki.

The way this has been taught (in my experience) is as a turn to left, lower block against kick then follow up with a punch to the chest, turn block kick from behind, follow up with punch to chest etc etc blah blah blah. Yes that is a very basic description of what the techniques could be used for, however this very much depends on peopel attacking you, one from the left then one from behind while your back is turned. In my experience, this just doesn't happen.

This video I found on youtube is a far more accurate description of the techniques used in Kihon (remember, the most "basic" of kata). Used against a single opponent the opening moves make far more sense in the modern world don't they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dhQBv9-jbw

Correct me if I am wrong.

For me, Kihon Kata can be applied to more than simply Zenkuts, Gedan and Oizuki! You could use Kihon but use, Age uke and gayakuzuki or Shuto, nukite and kokuts or any number of techniques, empi uke and mae mawashi empi uchi is one of my favourites! I have practised kihon as shown in the video and it is useful but the applications are numerous and should never imo be used exclusively against a kick only!

[bushido_man96]

I liked their approach here. I think there are some good things to build from. I especially like the starts from the fence position. Thanks for sharing this.

I really like the way it starts from the fence, I just think it's quite refreshing to see this sort of thing.

I get the diversity of the guard form both a defence and offence point of view, but I don’t get the wrist grabs?

It doesn't make sense from a self protection perspective, that an attacker would use both hands to grab both of your wrists - it really doesn't. No one with half a brain would take both their hands/arms out of commission that way.

To be honest - I could understand that approach from a Kaisetsu perspective if it promoted good body mechanics but it didn't really do that either imo.

As I said, the WT guy had a much better approach - probably because he wasn't trying to reverse engineer movements into kata that aren't really there in the first place.

K.

Wrist grabs can happen, but I agree with you that they aren't really to common, especially when guys fight. Man on woman, tends to be a different matter, though. But, its a good way to see the movements, and you can work from there, into something without the grab.

Kata is NOT combat training.

By the time you've figured out how to actually do the very first move of the very first kata properly, and I'm talking YEARS and quite possibly not ever, you really don't care that the bunkai for it is oversimplified.

I think it is combat training. The movements are teaching you to move with a purpose, learning how to put power into movements with your body, etc. I do think oversimplification is a good thing, though. More complex does not equate to being better.

[todome]

I think it is combat training. The movements are teaching you to move with a purpose, learning how to put power into movements with your body, etc. I do think oversimplification is a good thing, though. More complex does not equate to being better.

I didn't say it doesn't prepare you for combat. I said it isn't combat training.

[bushido_man96]

I think it is combat training. The movements are teaching you to move with a purpose, learning how to put power into movements with your body, etc. I do think oversimplification is a good thing, though. More complex does not equate to being better.

I didn't say it doesn't prepare you for combat. I said it isn't combat training.

Due to lack of a partner?

[Harkon72]

I wonder how one would define "Combat Training". Most Combat troops throughout the world use a Martial Art of some kind for their unarmed close quarter combat. Usually this takes the form of a cross section of a few styles that become their own. It is different to law enforcement systems; it is designed to neutralize or kill. Karate for example has at its core termination techniques that are present from the earliest Kata. The way we teach is to only include deadly applications when a student is mature enough to contemplate it. But that said, a focused punch to any vulnerable point can kill. Some styles pride themselves on Combat readiness, Sombo, Krav Maga and Hapkido for example. I believe that any Martial Art is suitable with the correct training. The Wushu of China is artistic enough, but it is a Martial Art, "Martial" being the defining word.

[todome]

I think it is combat training. The movements are teaching you to move with a purpose, learning how to put power into movements with your body, etc. I do think oversimplification is a good thing, though. More complex does not equate to being better.

I didn't say it doesn't prepare you for combat. I said it isn't combat training.

Due to lack of a partner?

Sorry if I'm sounding short. I'm afraid I have little patience the topic. Probably should have stayed out of it.

Not because it doesn't have a partner. Rather because it is formal defense against formal attacks. The movements are chosen for their teaching value, not their effectiveness on the street. It's not meant to be scenario training. In the Shotokan syllabus scenario training is called "self defense", in English anyways, and is treated as something other than kihon, kata and kumite.

btw, anyone in here agree that the guy is using his hips all wrong doing his turn to the left? You're not supposed to square the hips off left and then execute the block with reverse rotation. That is slow and weak. It should have more of a flowing punch feel to it, learning to power off the pivot leg directly to stance. Learning to turn on the inside with the turn of the head and moving straight out from the base that's formed from that. Seems to me his time would be better spent learning that than teaching ill-advised throws. Turning into someone like that will only get you choked out. Demos like that annoy the hell out me.