Classical Arts of Feudal Japan and Ninpo / Ninjutsu

[bushido_man96]

I think there are some who study Western Swordsmanship that could possibly fall under a similar title, like those of the Liechtenauer tradition.

Most western sword traditions practiced today have been “re-established” in modern times by enthusiasts working, in the most part, from historical documents.

The Koryu of ancient Japan however (or the ones that are still extant anyway) represent a constant unbroken transmition from living teacher to student - hands on as it were - for 400 - 600 years.

There are very few societies on the face of the globe that could boast such a “direct source” in terms of history than that.

This is why they became a major center of study for hoplologists like Draeger and Armstrong.

K.

Yeah, and I think that's all good, too. Unfortunately, the tradition of Western swordsmanship needed to be "rediscovered," but the good thing is that it has caused many to look into what it was really like, and not what the movies would have us believe. We can't get that unbroken line back. But that's ok, because we do have the manuscripts, and we can link ourselves to the past with them.

[Kusotare]

We can't get that unbroken line back. But that's ok, because we do have the manuscripts, and we can link ourselves to the past with them.

Once a transmition is broken it's never going to be the same again.

An important factor in training Koryu is the bonding you get with your instructor and fellow students. It's a physical/organic thing as much as anything else. My instructor guides me by correcting me with his hands in the same way his instructor used his hands to corrected him and so on...

Never going to be the same if something is broken and rediscovered 200 years later.

K.

[bushido_man96]

We can't get that unbroken line back. But that's ok, because we do have the manuscripts, and we can link ourselves to the past with them.

Once a transmition is broken it's never going to be the same again.

An important factor in training Koryu is the bonding you get with your instructor and fellow students. It's a physical/organic thing as much as anything else. My instructor guides me by correcting me with his hands in the same way his instructor used his hands to corrected him and so on...

Never going to be the same if something is broken and rediscovered 200 years later.

K.

As for that time split, no, it won't be retrieved. Nothing to be done about that. But what is important is if the training is solid, effective. The study of the manuscripts shows that those doing it are doing what they did back then, and they are constantly researching and practicing the techniques, refining more and more. We won't get the gap in time back, but the traditions are alive and well.

[Kusotare]

As for that time split, no, it won't be retrieved. Nothing to be done about that. But what is important is if the training is solid, effective. The study of the manuscripts shows that those doing it are doing what they did back then, and they are constantly researching and practicing the techniques, refining more and more. We won't get the gap in time back, but the traditions are alive and well.

Not really,

The manuscripts were in the most part pictorial and the balance in a medieval text.

The problem with pictures of "positions" when it comes to transmitting combative technique is that they are missing one important thing - what goes on in between!

Actually, it sounds like I am bashing medieval combat I'm not I love it.

One of my students is a professional medieval combat specialist here in the UK, and he has confirmed this on many an occasion.

It’s unjust to try to equate the modern day medieval combat with the Koryu of Japan.

K.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not trying to equate them. They are what they are. But just because they are now being rediscovered doesn't mean that they aren't an old fighting tradition.

As for what happens between the pictures, you are correct there. That's why the study groups work forwards and backwards to ascertain what is being demonstrated in the pictures and through the text. Not a best case scenario, but its what they have to work with, and they have done a good job, and I think they are pretty close to doing what those fighters did back then.

[Kusotare]

I'm not trying to equate them. They are what they are. But just because they are now being rediscovered doesn't mean that they aren't an old fighting tradition.

The word "tradition" is the sticking point.

To me, a tradition is something that is handed down from one generation to the next as opposed to rejuvenating a practice that has not been done for centuries.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

K.

[bushido_man96]

I see where you are coming from. But there can be old traditions, and new traditions. All these old traditions you study up on had to start somewhere. They were once new. Likewise, new traditions just need a few people to pick up on them and make them consistent for them to become so. Or, old traditions can be brought back and reborn, re-established. Like I said, it is unfortunate that the line was broken, but we just have to work around that.

[ps1]

I'm not trying to equate them. They are what they are. But just because they are now being rediscovered doesn't mean that they aren't an old fighting tradition.

The word "tradition" is the sticking point.

To me, a tradition is something that is handed down from one generation to the next as opposed to rejuvenating a practice that has not been done for centuries.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

K.

I get where you're coming from. However, one only has to play the telephone game to realize that information is, inevitably, lost or changed (either purposely or not) when translated from one person to the next. Do that in a room with 100 people and you'll really see it. Over the course of several hundred years, it's probably worse. I realize that these people work very hard and diligently to avoid such degredation of information/knowledge, but it's quite likely that what is practiced today is very different from how it was practiced 400 years ago. This is especially true because it's no longer battle tested.

[Kusotare]

I'm not trying to equate them. They are what they are. But just because they are now being rediscovered doesn't mean that they aren't an old fighting tradition.

The word "tradition" is the sticking point.

To me, a tradition is something that is handed down from one generation to the next as opposed to rejuvenating a practice that has not been done for centuries.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

K.

I get where you're coming from. However, one only has to play the telephone game to realize that information is, inevitably, lost or changed (either purposely or not) when translated from one person to the next. Do that in a room with 100 people and you'll really see it. Over the course of several hundred years, it's probably worse. I realize that these people work very hard and diligently to avoid such degredation of information/knowledge, but it's quite likely that what is practiced today is very different from how it was practiced 400 years ago. This is especially true because it's no longer battle tested.

Ryuha develop from one head master to another.

After all ryu means stream so it kinda goes with the territory.

Actually, most koryu have very detailed densho to back up the practical.

The densho are as accurate as many of the medieval manuscripts. In fact the densho is the tradition and the koryu exist to transmit it.

It's certainly going to be more authentic than restarting a tradition that hasn't been trained for centuries.

There is simply no comparison.

K.

[bushido_man96]

I'm speaking mainly about the use, study, and practice of the fighting techniques involved. Through the course of live practice sessions and studies of the manuscripts, along with common sense, I don't have any doubt that these guys are doing what was done all those years ago. There are only so many ways the body can move and defend in a practical manner with these weapons, and the warriors of the time would have been seeking to move and defend and attack with these weapons in these ways.

Its definitely a different, and more challenging way, to go about things, but the way warfare evolved in Europe caused these arts to fall by the wayside, with fencing being the only real survivor throughout the years, and it is the style that has really changed so much.