Classical Arts of Feudal Japan and Ninpo / Ninjutsu

[Kusotare]

At the end of the day, both are challenging and rewarding for those who are prepared to stick at it.

You only get out of life what you put into it as they say.

Sadly many folk today simply don't have the time or aspiration to understand such benefits, and I guess everyone's goals are different.

I thought it worth posting this thread however to encourage people that there is more than just kicking and punching involved in the "global" study of martial arts.

K.

[ps1]

I'm not trying to equate them. They are what they are. But just because they are now being rediscovered doesn't mean that they aren't an old fighting tradition.

The word "tradition" is the sticking point.

To me, a tradition is something that is handed down from one generation to the next as opposed to rejuvenating a practice that has not been done for centuries.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

K.

I get where you're coming from. However, one only has to play the telephone game to realize that information is, inevitably, lost or changed (either purposely or not) when translated from one person to the next. Do that in a room with 100 people and you'll really see it. Over the course of several hundred years, it's probably worse. I realize that these people work very hard and diligently to avoid such degredation of information/knowledge, but it's quite likely that what is practiced today is very different from how it was practiced 400 years ago. This is especially true because it's no longer battle tested.

Ryuha develop from one head master to another.

After all ryu means stream so it kinda goes with the territory.

Actually, most koryu have very detailed densho to back up the practical.

The densho are as accurate as many of the medieval manuscripts. In fact the densho is the tradition and the koryu exist to transmit it.

It's certainly going to be more authentic than restarting a tradition that hasn't been trained for centuries.

There is simply no comparison.

K.

Psychology tells us it is different. Whether you or I chose to believe that or not is not important. The likelihood of your technique being exactly identical to that of someone from 500 years ago approaches zero. Similar, for sure. But as hard as we try information is always lost. Densho or no.

You're certainly correct that having both the Densho along with the unbroken personal transmition of such knowledge is certainly going to make it more "authentic" than trying to rediscover the knowledge after hundreds of years.

There's no arguing that you're right about only getting out what you put in. As I said before, I loved studying the art. It was approached as a cultural exchange as well. It was so much more that just fighting. Very interesting and rewarding. In all honesty, I would probably be studying it again today if I had not found Jiu-jitsu. But, for me, jiu-jitsu is the most rewarding art I've ever trained. It would require a life crisis for me to give it up.

[Kusotare]

Thought I'd post this for any of the forum members who, perhaps, weren't too sure about what Koryu Bujutsu is.

I'm sure this has been posted on here before (possibly even by myself), but I love what the Empty Mind guys produce so...

If you want to see what I do (and love) watch this...

Feel free to fire any questions to me after watching it. I can't be sure that I will be able to answer, but I will do my best.

K.

[Dark Shogun]

I do 2 Koryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (long sword) and Shinto Muso Ryu (long sword, short sword, 4" staff, 3" staff, jutte and war fan). There are other weapons in SMR but I haven't studied them yet.

I also do Okinawan Goju Ryu (arguably a koryu). I have also trained in Koryu Uchnadi, which has koryu in it's name but is not recognised as such AFAIK.

[Kusotare]

I do 2 Koryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (long sword) and Shinto Muso Ryu (long sword, short sword, 4" staff, 3" staff, jutte and war fan). There are other weapons in SMR but I haven't studied them yet.

I also do Okinawan Goju Ryu (arguably a koryu). I have also trained in Koryu Uchnadi, which has koryu in it's name but is not recognised as such AFAIK.

Excellent Ryu-ha, all of them.

Shindo Muso Ryu has a very expansive curriculum.

Koryu Uchinada is not a koryu you are correct. It was created by Patrick McCarthy in the eighties I believe, but reflects his research into the traditional ways of Okinawa.

K.

[Drew]

I'm not trying to equate them. They are what they are. But just because they are now being rediscovered doesn't mean that they aren't an old fighting tradition.

The word "tradition" is the sticking point.

To me, a tradition is something that is handed down from one generation to the next as opposed to rejuvenating a practice that has not been done for centuries.

I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

K.

I get where you're coming from. However, one only has to play the telephone game to realize that information is, inevitably, lost or changed (either purposely or not) when translated from one person to the next. Do that in a room with 100 people and you'll really see it. Over the course of several hundred years, it's probably worse. I realize that these people work very hard and diligently to avoid such degredation of information/knowledge, but it's quite likely that what is practiced today is very different from how it was practiced 400 years ago. This is especially true because it's no longer battle tested.

Ryuha develop from one head master to another.

After all ryu means stream so it kinda goes with the territory.

Actually, most koryu have very detailed densho to back up the practical.

The densho are as accurate as many of the medieval manuscripts. In fact the densho is the tradition and the koryu exist to transmit it.

It's certainly going to be more authentic than restarting a tradition that hasn't been trained for centuries.

There is simply no comparison.

K.

In an irritated voice: If it isn't in the Jedi Archives, it does not exist.

The truth is, there simply is comparison. You can compare literally anything. Now I don't really care about the Historical authenticity of HEMA, but I agree with (Brian, is it?) that there are only so many ways to move which makes it likely we are close to the mark. In addition to this is the fact that HEMA practitioners in general have a very hands on, rough and tumble let's. spar attitude towards training, which we know from the literature was an attitude shared by many of the period practitioners. The best of us are extremely skilled at actually fighting with our weapons and seamlessly incorporating battlefield grappling in and out of harness. I'm not pointing any fingers, but many koryu practitioners do not share these characteristics, and these very characteristics are what matter to me when comparing the two traditions.