Do Kyokushin or other karate styles practice throws?

[Kuma]

Stomping on someone's head while they are on the ground can kill them, hence why it could be considered attempted murder.

Kansetsu geri is a knee joint attack, not a head stomp.

[Kusotare]

BTW, I mean no offense and please forgive me if English is not you first language but "Jujutsu" has many spellings. When it come to Japanese Koryu Jujutsu however it is "Jujutsu" never Jiu Jitsu etc.

K.

English was indeed my first language but after 10 years in Thailand it ain't what it used to be. Thanks for the correction. Being a Wado guy I checked over at the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai website for confirmation and lo, the spelling used there is "jujutsu".

By the way, in my few visits to train in Japan I've seen that many of the high level Wado guys have significant judo experience as well and they draw on this in their sparring very effectively. But they don't distinguish techniques as "judo" or "karate". Since Wado is more about a set of principles than a collection of techniques, any movement that is compatible with those principles (which derive from Shindo Yoshin-ryu) can be freely adopted.

As well as Wado, I study a Koryu bujutsu from which many of the "techniques" found in Judo derive and although it is Jujutsu - most folk in Japan refer to it as Judo - as you say, they dont tend to distinguish between the two.

Of course Wado has other throws that can be found in Tanto-dori and Idori. Again most of these are straight from the Densho of SYR.

My Instructor (who is also licensed in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu) and Threadgill sensei often train with one and other to compare notes (Tobin likes to work on the comparisons with TSR as it is a parent art of SYR).

Take Wado's Shumoku-dori - that's very similar to the one done in TSR (and thus SYR).

All good fun

K.

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

Stomping on someone's head while they are on the ground can kill them, hence why it could be considered attempted murder.

Kansetsu geri is a knee joint attack, not a head stomp.

The technique is Fumi Komi (stomping), not Kansetsu Geri. It's probably used for situations with unknown number of attackers when you can't let them get up again? There is always the option to steal the downed persons purse and run away instead (That was a joke). If the threat is removed, escape!

However, we should keep in mind that in the "western" world the self defense aspect of MA is largely academic. I don't know anybody who has used Karate for self defense in a situation that couldn't have been de-escalated or avoided otherwise. Law enforcement persons excluded, but they shouldn't use karate for their job anyway.

Statistically (for preventable injuries/deaths), self defense starts with:

(1) driving safely (-22 to -50% injuries/deaths from car accidents),

(2) judo breakfalls (-20 to -25% injuries/deaths from falling),

(3) good housekeeping (-6 to -10% injuries/deaths from poisoning),

(4) no firearms (-5 to -9% injuries/deaths).

(5) think before doing something stupid (-18 to - 25%)

Sources: http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/ and http://www.cdc.gov/injury/

Conclusion: I do Karate for fun, fitness, and to vent excess energy. I try to keep it practical and applicable for a worst case scenario, but at the same time I am sure I will not use for self defense. Thus I can include head stomps in my training.

[bushido_man96]

....stamping on peoples heads is tantamount to attempted murder according to most western laws - Id just be careful about that.

K.

"...tantamount to murder.".....that's a little extreme don't you think?

The 'kick' is called 'Kansetsu geri' its function is just that a stamp to your would be attacker!

I can't speak to the laws on mainland Europe, or the US here in the UK the law says:

"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

That particular use of the work 'reasonable' has been a sticky point and under new changes to said law the 'victim' is now allowed to use the force they have to, to defend them selves.

To place its 'protection' of a person into context, and to take into account other provisions made in law as an example the following has been sited:

(in aid of the victim)

"..son shot dead his father to protect his mother from a serious assault, believing that this was the only practical way of defending her given his small physical size."

The key in the main is not the act or the action but the reference to size and options open to the 'son'

If such a kick was used in a 'street fight' would it not be more accurate to say 'excessive force' rather than murder, when all you are doing is protecting yourself or your mum of.....

I'm not picking an argument here rather trying to set better understanding and not give rise to panic of others as well as none Martial arts in that we are not bullies nor are we to considered unstable.

We are not vigilantes, we are not soon to be murderers, we have control we can be trusted we understand respect, humility and law.

Our skill should be understood to mean that as such we will apply what 'is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime', if we have to be in that mind set at all.

What it really boils down to is that if you do end up stamping (or stomping) someone's head, you had better be able to justify why you did it. Just because one gets into a fight doesn't automatically justify all of one's action in said fight. There is a lot more to it, for sure. I would agree with Kusotare here, and just advise to be careful.

[Hawkmoon]

Please don't misunderstand, I agree the idea of a 'stamp' be it to the head or not is going to be a point of contention, I have no doubt in that it is a nasty kick a painful kick for sure!

As such I whole heatedly agree with the need/advice to be carefully!

My concern is the apparent ease (not Kusotare in this chat) that people generally and in my experience the people who do not practice martial arts jump to the monster stereo type a Martial artist is labelled with when things get heated or worse.

the ease that we have this interest in a far eastern culture and to that that we have been taught how to fight.

Rather than lash out with a left hook hey-maker or some odd kick thing with our leg, we know how to punch or can select a point on the attacker to kick to get them to back down or away.

It seems to me its easier for other just to say monster and leave it at that, its wrong and I'm of the opinion that we should do more to make others understand this.

[JusticeZero]

However, we should keep in mind that in the "western" world the self defense aspect of MA is largely academic. I don't know anybody who has used Karate for self defense in a situation that couldn't have been de-escalated or avoided otherwise. Law enforcement persons excluded, but they shouldn't use karate for their job anyway.

And what about the techniques that they use to restrain and handcuff a criminal? Should they not use those? I've known of a couple of uses of martial arts in practice, and in all of them, the combative application was itself a way to de-escalate the encounter by putting the attacker in a position where they were unable to continue attacking with minimum harm.

That said, it seems more likely that you will encounter a "drunk uncle" public safety issue than an attacker.

I don't drive at all (bicycle, transit, walk, all easier than people imagine it would be), and there are other ways to break a fall than what judo teaches.

[JusticeZero]

My concern is the apparent ease (not Kusotare in this chat) that people generally and in my experience the people who do not practice martial arts jump to the monster stereo type a Martial artist is labelled with when things get heated or worse.

It seems to me its easier for other just to say monster and leave it at that, its wrong and I'm of the opinion that we should do more to make others understand this.

Yes, I had an acquaintance just forcefully distance themself from me in disgust because of how "violent" I was for suggesting that evasion might be a better response to being punched in the face than just getting hurt, and that restraining an attacker is an acceptable response to violence.

They proceeded to declare that I lived in hopes that someone would pick a fight with me. This is ridiculous; they've seen more violence than I have, and if I really wanted to get in fights, I could prowl the bars of the French Quarter and get someone to take a swing at me every night, let alone sport venues and the like.

[Hawkmoon]

This is exactly what I'm saying, its all to easy to just say 'monster' and thats it...all done were all viewed with fear, and distrust.

I was involved in an opposite situation that developed some years back. In that situation the 'guy' next door (1st floor flat) forgot to close his front door whilst he beat his wife......I felt it was an invite to me to come in and..um..discuss the matter with him.

The police arrived and found no fault in my actions, rather offered to take me to ER for a check over seeing as a rather large clock had fallen on me during the discussions.

They eventually caught him a few weeks later (he had jumped out the window to get away that night) and pressed charges using the records from my visit to ER and his wife's testimony.

The police were very clear that they viewed my actions to be exactly what the law allowed!

(to my shame I broke a knuckle (when the clock hit me knocking me side ways) as I was making a specific point...and caught the knuckle on the corner of the wall)

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

And what about the techniques that they use to restrain and handcuff a criminal? Should they not use those? I've known of a couple of uses of martial arts in practice, and in all of them, the combative application was itself a way to de-escalate the encounter by putting the attacker in a position where they were unable to continue attacking with minimum harm.

That said, it seems more likely that you will encounter a "drunk uncle" public safety issue than an attacker.

I don't drive at all (bicycle, transit, walk, all easier than people imagine it would be), and there are other ways to break a fall than what judo teaches.

If de-escalation doesn't work, Law Enforcement People should use either "Judo" like restraining techniques, or stop a conflict with superior numbers/weapons. There is no reason at all for them to engage in a fist fight, break someones knee or stomp a head (which would be Karate)...

...respect for the car-less lifestyle! I guess it keeps you fit!

[bushido_man96]

And what about the techniques that they use to restrain and handcuff a criminal? Should they not use those? I've known of a couple of uses of martial arts in practice, and in all of them, the combative application was itself a way to de-escalate the encounter by putting the attacker in a position where they were unable to continue attacking with minimum harm.

That said, it seems more likely that you will encounter a "drunk uncle" public safety issue than an attacker.

I don't drive at all (bicycle, transit, walk, all easier than people imagine it would be), and there are other ways to break a fall than what judo teaches.

If de-escalation doesn't work, Law Enforcement People should use either "Judo" like restraining techniques, or stop a conflict with superior numbers/weapons. There is no reason at all for them to engage in a fist fight, break someones knee or stomp a head (which would be Karate)...

...respect for the car-less lifestyle! I guess it keeps you fit!

Normally, cops won't be stomping heads. Cops have to adhere to a use of force continuum. Sometimes, strikes need to be used. Often, they will be kicks to the legs, or knee strikes to the legs, if need be. Now, if the force level escalates beyond that, like with a knife, then higher levels of force are necessary. If someone grabs my gun, higher levels of force are warranted. That guy might get an elbow to the face as I try to wedge him away from me. If he continues to hold on, he'll probably get a few more. But, its justifiable because of the level of force he is willing to commit to.

So, in the end, it all just depends.