Do Kyokushin or other karate styles practice throws?

[infinitehand]

Very nice topic. Truly the question should be does YOUR karate have throws?

It seems to me that the pioneers of karate pre wwII all either studied judo or some other art. And it is said that Okinawan sumo was very popular so it is natural to believe that throws and takedowns were incorporated into the Katas they developed. Once again I wasn't there, but there are numerous pictures of Karate masters performing throws just a simple search online shows that.

IMHO Karate throws are not JJ throws. I don't study JJ and can't speak on it with any authority. I believe JJ has more developed throws than Karate. The throws I practice, yes, on a regular basis seem pretty rudimentary and nasty. Most appear to be slams as opposed to actually throwing someone in the air. For instance, pin the foot then do throw "A". This seems a lot more nasty than an average hip throw. I'm sure JJ does this too.

But I've never studied any throwing or grappling art, nor has my teacher. We just do what we do.

So To ask does karate have throws, you have to look where your asking. Originally? Yes I believe so. Should it? Oh yes. If a certain school doesn't practice them then I suppose the answer would be no.

[sensei8]

Very nice topic. Truly the question should be does YOUR karate have throws?

It seems to me that the pioneers of karate pre wwII all either studied judo or some other art. And it is said that Okinawan sumo was very popular so it is natural to believe that throws and takedowns were incorporated into the Katas they developed. Once again I wasn't there, but there are numerous pictures of Karate masters performing throws just a simple search online shows that.

IMHO Karate throws are not JJ throws. I don't study JJ and can't speak on it with any authority. I believe JJ has more developed throws than Karate. The throws I practice, yes, on a regular basis seem pretty rudimentary and nasty. Most appear to be slams as opposed to actually throwing someone in the air. For instance, pin the foot then do throw "A". This seems a lot more nasty than an average hip throw. I'm sure JJ does this too.

But I've never studied any throwing or grappling art, nor has my teacher. We just do what we do.

So To ask does karate have throws, you have to look where your asking. Originally? Yes I believe so. Should it? Oh yes. If a certain school doesn't practice them then I suppose the answer would be no.

Solid post!!

[tao plao]

In our Wado dojo we sometimes practice throws as interpretations/extensions of kata moves. But we also have 2 throws that are formally taught as part of our syllabus (JKF Wadokai). These are found in kihon kumite kata numbers 5 and 10. As with kihon kumite kata in general, I think these 2 throws derive more from Wado's jiu-jitsu heritage than from the Okinawan side.

[Hawkmoon]

Historically, yes Kyokushin did teach throws!

Much of the early history of Kyokushin describes the student turn over rate (the fail rate if you wish) to be around 90%! This was as much to do with the 'hard style' of fighting as it was to do with throwing your opponent across the dojo.

Sosai Oyama held full on DAN grades in Shotokan and Judo long before he went away into isolation and returned to the world with his new fighting system he called 'Kyokushikai.'

Today some dojos teach throws others not, my first dojo didn't, the dojo I train with now does self defense (grappling) and Iaido.

I've done some Jui Jitsu in the past, kind of like my own homage to Sosai and history.

I may yet go back to doing some more, for now I just want get my fitness back and focus on grading. (once I feel fit enough that is.)

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

We practice 24 throws (nage waza) as fixed part of our curriculum. These trows are an integral part of belt tests and resemble judo throws, albeit with a 'bit more Karate' added.

Obviously there are many more in the Kata, which have to be discovered and practiced as well.

Here is a video of the first 12 recorded from my German Honbu Dojo:

[sensei8]

Very nice video...solid!!

Thank you for sharing it!!

[Kusotare]

We practice 24 throws (nage waza) as fixed part of our curriculum. These trows are an integral part of belt tests and resemble judo throws, albeit with a 'bit more Karate' added.

Obviously there are many more in the Kata, which have to be discovered and practiced as well.

Here is a video of the first 12 recorded from my German Honbu Dojo:

Nice vids agreed, but stamping on peoples heads is tantamount to attempted murder according to most western laws - Id just be careful about that.

K.

[Kusotare]

In our Wado dojo we sometimes practice throws as interpretations/extensions of kata moves. But we also have 2 throws that are formally taught as part of our syllabus (JKF Wadokai). These are found in kihon kumite kata numbers 5 and 10. As with kihon kumite kata in general, I think these 2 throws derive more from Wado's jiu-jitsu heritage than from the Okinawan side.

That is correct.

Kihon Kumite #5 and #10 are almost certainly derived from Shindo Yoshin-ryu.

In fact, #10 is a carbon copy of a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu technique called Kinukatsugi - which means to "carry the cloth" (in such a way that you drape someone over you as you throw them).

BTW, I mean no offense and please forgive me if English is not you first language but "Jujutsu" has many spellings. When it come to Japanese Koryu Jujutsu however it is "Jujutsu" never Jiu Jitsu etc.

K.

[tao plao]

BTW, I mean no offense and please forgive me if English is not you first language but "Jujutsu" has many spellings. When it come to Japanese Koryu Jujutsu however it is "Jujutsu" never Jiu Jitsu etc.

K.

English was indeed my first language but after 10 years in Thailand it ain't what it used to be. Thanks for the correction. Being a Wado guy I checked over at the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai website for confirmation and lo, the spelling used there is "jujutsu".

By the way, in my few visits to train in Japan I've seen that many of the high level Wado guys have significant judo experience as well and they draw on this in their sparring very effectively. But they don't distinguish techniques as "judo" or "karate". Since Wado is more about a set of principles than a collection of techniques, any movement that is compatible with those principles (which derive from Shindo Yoshin-ryu) can be freely adopted.

[Hawkmoon]

....stamping on peoples heads is tantamount to attempted murder according to most western laws - Id just be careful about that.

K.

"...tantamount to murder.".....that's a little extreme don't you think?

The 'kick' is called 'Kansetsu geri' its function is just that a stamp to your would be attacker!

I can't speak to the laws on mainland Europe, or the US here in the UK the law says:

"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

That particular use of the work 'reasonable' has been a sticky point and under new changes to said law the 'victim' is now allowed to use the force they have to, to defend them selves.

To place its 'protection' of a person into context, and to take into account other provisions made in law as an example the following has been sited:

(in aid of the victim)

"..son shot dead his father to protect his mother from a serious assault, believing that this was the only practical way of defending her given his small physical size."

The key in the main is not the act or the action but the reference to size and options open to the 'son'

If such a kick was used in a 'street fight' would it not be more accurate to say 'excessive force' rather than murder, when all you are doing is protecting yourself or your mum of.....

I'm not picking an argument here rather trying to set better understanding and not give rise to panic of others as well as none Martial arts in that we are not bullies nor are we to considered unstable.

We are not vigilantes, we are not soon to be murderers, we have control we can be trusted we understand respect, humility and law.

Our skill should be understood to mean that as such we will apply what 'is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime', if we have to be in that mind set at all.