American Based (Are We That Unworthy?)

[maisweh]

Maisweh, your stance about not needing to be associated with a larger group / governing body (Japanese or otherwise) is clear. You obviously feel you can develop better by going it alone and only you can know that.

I would also agree about your comments "Shogu" gods with their smoke and mirrors; however you seem to want to dismiss every other legitimate connection that karate has with Japan – apart from the name “Karate”

Can I ask, do you call what you do Karate? Do you train in Karate gi? Do you operate a Kyu / Dan System? Do you have solo and paired Kata?

Having any or all of the above in no way reflects how good (or bad) your karate is so, what’s the point in having them, particularly if you want to isolate yourself from other Karate associations - and distance yourself from anything Japanese?

I don’t ask this in a derogatory way I find it genuinely interesting.

I have an acquaintance on another internet forum that started off life training Shotokan karate with a traditional group. He eventually formed his own group concentrating on conflict management and now teaches seminars around the country and has penned a number of books. He very rarely wears a karate suit these days and he does not call what he does karate. Interestingly enough though, his system is based around the pinan katas.

Do you need to call what you do Karate?

K.

i never dismissed associations or any legitimate link with Japan. i just dont understand the point of trying so hard just to find a link, and if not then youre "illigetimate"

i do karate. i "americanized" it, being that if i can call something by an american name, like a front snap kick or push kick, or round house, i will. 10th kyu-5th dan. white uniforms. white, orange, yellow, blue, purple, green, brown then black for kids, adults white, green, brown, black. once or twice a month we all come in street clothes and train in that, or after class we use regular clothes. we base off of the pinan, heian, pinanyan forms. we do boxing and kickboxing drills and sparring, we do tournament karate, and i try to pass on as much ground work as i can and urge my students to find what works for them, because i can only give them what works for me. we run our class like a typical karate school/mma gym/insert school here.

a kid comes to my class with a bunch of certificates asking to be placed in the "proper" class. certificates dont mean a thing to me, its ability. i dont care what kind of seal or stamp of approval it has, if you cant do a good kick, have good stances, then your certificate is meaningless.

in my area, its easier to market without being a japanophile. train to fight, train to compete. send a kid to soccer practice only for 10 years and expect them to not get bored?

i'm not trying to get away from anything japanese, but i'm american, and i have forged my own fighting spirit and don't need to copy another cultures. budo intrigues me, yet doesnt make me want to be like them. i don't belive in "one punch, one kill" i dont believe in "ki" or "chi" powers, i beleive we must all make karate our own and not rely on others to dictate us how we should train.

i give my kids about 10 minutes at the end of class to pair off and work a section of kata... to let them figure out how it works... thats after boxing drills, stance work, and conditioning as well as joint locks.

in our overly politically correct society afraid of hurting feelings and trying to talk their way out of a situation with a bully, while self defense is seen as more and more of "you defend yourself, you get in trouble too." i see less and less martial arts schools actually advertise self defense and use "self confidence" discipline, honor, etc... while I, and many may disagree, but I was always taught, by my dad, that the only way to stop a bully is to stand up and kick his butt, and if i get in trouble, well, he would take my side and have my back. i have my kids backs in those situations. the honor, respect, discipline is all taught in my school, but not advertised like that. it comes with the ground.

wow, i went off on a tangent.

but that is MY "karate" if you want to call it that.

anyway kusotare, tell me about yourself.

[Kusotare]

Thanks for your reply maiswey.

To me it sounds like you teach a decent lesson in your group.

You say you have americanised it? Can I ask what the foundation style is?

As for me, I’m a long standing student and instructor in Wado-ryu Karate. The lesson structure within our group hasn’t really changed from that introduced into Europe by Tatsuo Suzuki sensei who was my instructor’s teacher.

Lessons are conducted in Japanese and English (but not to the extent that it is detrimental to the students understanding).

My Instructor is British however our Group is affiliated to the European Wado-kai and The Japan Karate Federation Wado-kai.

Essentially, the techniques and processes that we practice within the dojo of our group are exactly the same as those taught in dojo in Japan.

I am also a Student in and lead a UK based study group in a Koryu of ancient Japan. We practice Sword and Jujutsu and although my instructor lives in Japan he is actually Irish.

Again, lessons are conducted in Japanese (in fact it is often archaic Japanese), but primarily the spoken word is English.

It’s funny because often, when people (who have a background in gendai arts) first train with our group (or any other Koryu for that matter), they are surprised by the lack of formality – compared to that of a modern Karate club. The Koryu I am a member of is best part of 400 years old, and yet the instructors are simply referred to as Sensei (or by their first names). You work to your limits within training sessions but there is little or no regimentation to the class – it’s a lot more relaxed.

The drill sergeant approach to Karate with it high flying Shogu entitled instructors and ridiculous ceremonies there to promote a false sense of importance are a modern (often Western) invention.

Folk often refer to the word Budo as if it were a dirty word. It’s an often misunderstood word but it’s not a bad word imo. Budo doesn’t mean you become a pansy overnight and it doesn’t mean that detach martial ability for self improvement. But it’s a big topic that probably deserves its own thread.

K.

[bushido_man96]

I don't think I said it was an exclusively American sport.

You didn't, but globally, when the world thinks "Baseball", they think America.

When the world thinks "Karate", they think Japan.

K.

When I think "Karate," I think "it came from Japan," but that's about the extent of it. Or I think "it came from Okinawa." But that's really the extent of it. But anymore, it isn't defined by one person's ideology, or necessarily by the culture of the country it came from, because anyone who digs into it, is bound to do something original with it.

[bushido_man96]

Maisweh, your stance about not needing to be associated with a larger group / governing body (Japanese or otherwise) is clear. You obviously feel you can develop better by going it alone and only you can know that.

I would also agree about your comments "Shogu" gods with their smoke and mirrors; however you seem to want to dismiss every other legitimate connection that karate has with Japan – apart from the name “Karate”

Can I ask, do you call what you do Karate? Do you train in Karate gi? Do you operate a Kyu / Dan System? Do you have solo and paired Kata?

Having any or all of the above in no way reflects how good (or bad) your karate is so, what’s the point in having them, particularly if you want to isolate yourself from other Karate associations - and distance yourself from anything Japanese?

I don’t ask this in a derogatory way I find it genuinely interesting.

I have an acquaintance on another internet forum that started off life training Shotokan karate with a traditional group. He eventually formed his own group concentrating on conflict management and now teaches seminars around the country and has penned a number of books. He very rarely wears a karate suit these days and he does not call what he does karate. Interestingly enough though, his system is based around the pinan katas.

Do you need to call what you do Karate?

K.

Just to throw in my 2 cents here, he may not need to call it Karate, but what's wrong with calling it Karate? Can't Karate evolve?

[bushido_man96]

i never dismissed associations or any legitimate link with Japan. i just dont understand the point of trying so hard just to find a link, and if not then youre "illigetimate"

i do karate. i "americanized" it, being that if i can call something by an american name, like a front snap kick or push kick, or round house, i will. 10th kyu-5th dan. white uniforms. white, orange, yellow, blue, purple, green, brown then black for kids, adults white, green, brown, black. once or twice a month we all come in street clothes and train in that, or after class we use regular clothes. we base off of the pinan, heian, pinanyan forms. we do boxing and kickboxing drills and sparring, we do tournament karate, and i try to pass on as much ground work as i can and urge my students to find what works for them, because i can only give them what works for me. we run our class like a typical karate school/mma gym/insert school here.

I agree. I don't think there is anything wrong with inserting your own cultural approaches into the style you study or teach. I think it actually makes it easier for students to attain a comfort level in the classes at an early stage.

The only argument I ever really hear in regards to using the Japanese, or in my case, Korean, in the style is "in case you ever train with someone from another country/seminar/etc." While that is well and good, if the only language you share are the words of certain physical movements, then your not going to likely have an easy time picking up on the little nuances the person is trying to describe to you in this special training session. The shared languages of the dojo/dojang won't be enough to really overcome a language barrier.

i'm not trying to get away from anything japanese, but i'm american, and i have forged my own fighting spirit and don't need to copy another cultures. budo intrigues me, yet doesnt make me want to be like them. i don't belive in "one punch, one kill" i dont believe in "ki" or "chi" powers, i beleive we must all make karate our own and not rely on others to dictate us how we should train.

Agreed.

in our overly politically correct society afraid of hurting feelings and trying to talk their way out of a situation with a bully, while self defense is seen as more and more of "you defend yourself, you get in trouble too." i see less and less martial arts schools actually advertise self defense and use "self confidence" discipline, honor, etc... while I, and many may disagree, but I was always taught, by my dad, that the only way to stop a bully is to stand up and kick his butt, and if i get in trouble, well, he would take my side and have my back. i have my kids backs in those situations. the honor, respect, discipline is all taught in my school, but not advertised like that. it comes with the ground.

I couldn't agree with you more here, especially when it comes to the bully aspect.

It’s funny because often, when people (who have a background in gendai arts) first train with our group (or any other Koryu for that matter), they are surprised by the lack of formality – compared to that of a modern Karate club. The Koryu I am a member of is best part of 400 years old, and yet the instructors are simply referred to as Sensei (or by their first names). You work to your limits within training sessions but there is little or no regimentation to the class – it’s a lot more relaxed.

Sounds like a great classroom atmosphere. I'd love to see a class like that.

The drill sergeant approach to Karate with it high flying Shogu entitled instructors and ridiculous ceremonies there to promote a false sense of importance are a modern (often Western) invention.

I am curious as to if this is the case or not. A good point to ponder.

[sensei8]

When I think of "Karate" I don't think of Japan and/or Okinawa and/or anywhere else. When I think of "Karate", I think not so far away. I think of Soke and Dai-Soke and then myself. I'm a student first of Dai-Soke, but the "Karate" that "I" do is mine; that's the evolution of Shindokan, however, my evolution isn't bounded to Shindokan, no, I've exposed myself to a wide plethora of MA styles because while Shindokan is a great form of "Karate", it's incomplete, therefore, I've taken the effectiveness from wherever I found.

Yes, I teach Shindokan as it's meant to be taught, but "MY" Karate isn't only Shindokan.

[kensei]

i do karate. i "americanized" it, being that if i can call something by an american name,

Just to clarify here...you meant you call it by an "English name" right?

[MasterPain]

i do karate. i "americanized" it, being that if i can call something by an american name,

Just to clarify here...you meant you call it by an "English name" right?

We don't speak English, we talk American.

[kensei]

We don't speak English, we talk American.

Lol, So...just for arguments sake...what do Canadians, Australians, English, Irish, Welsh, Scots, Antigua, Barbuda, Bahama, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Cameroon, Dominca, Fiji, Ghuana, Jamaica, kenya, Malta, Samoa, Singapore, South Africa, Sudan, Tnongo, Trinidad and Tobago, Uganda, and Simbabwe speak? Other than native languages??

[sensei8]

Whatever the language might be, hopefully it's conducive with the MA one trains in, albeit, the language is pure MA.