American Based (Are We That Unworthy?)

[sensei8]

Sensei8,

What are your thoughts on this?

K.

It's been suggested to our Hombu's Executive Administration by outsiders that we'd be better served by our students if we "latched-on" to one of the well noted Okinawa governing bodies so that the Hombu "will be more credible" seeing that our Soke/Dai-Soke are no longer "part of the picture" any longer.

Hhhhmmmm! Really?!?

After about a very, very short meeting, the Hombu's Executive Administration decided that "we're not interested! Thank you for the consideration!"

I've meet and I'm close to a many well noted Karateka's and it surprises me that while they're extraordinary Karateka's across the board, they STILL feel that they must have an affiliation with some well noted governing body from either Japan or Okinawa.

I'll see it on their business cards! I'll see it on their letterheads!! I'll see it on their websites!! I'll see it on their window front!! I'll even hear it when they're engaged in a conversation referring to validity and the like.

Why? I've no idea and they usually explain it to me with one word..."Credibility"! Well, the governing body might be credible but that doesn't make those practitioners of the MA credible.

PROOF IS ON THE FLOOR!!

If I can't stand on my own two feet, then I've no business teaching/training/practicing/conversation/administrating Shindokan ever! Not now, not back then, and not in the future.

Even our own Shindokan dojo's that are affiliated with the Hombu do so because they want to, they've chosen to do so, and the Hombu never forced them to, nor did the Hombu ask them if they wanted to. The Hombu makes itself available to EVERYONE within the Shindokan family!! Even if they don't choose to be affiliated with the Hombu, the Hombu will still recognize their dojo, its CI, its students, and their rank!!

The affiliation with the Hombu doesn't make that Shindokan dojo credible. NO!! They already had that because they were affiliated with Soke and Dai-Soke along time ago. By affiliated I mean, they knew them quite personally. They "handled" them; they spoke with them, they trained with them, they touched them, they learnt from them, they bleed with them, and they laughed/cried with them, they broke bread with them...face to face...eye to eye!!

BUT...

I'm not in the market of joining/affiliating with any governing body from anywhere for the sake of "Appearances". Want to "test" us? Want to "verify" us? Want to? Go for it!! Opinions are just that, nothing more and nothing less.

In the world, we're nobody. On the floor, we're credible/verifiable/etc!!

[JusticeZero]

There is a distinction between an "___ese instructor" and "Instructor X, from ____". in the second case, go ahead. You're learning from an instructor who is teaching in a general way to students. The first is worrisome, because i've seen entirely too many ridiculous "traditions" created from whole cloth out of silly (and often racist) stereotypes and sold to Americans who gobble them up and think that they have gotten real value.

[maisweh]

So, did martial arts evolve from fighting? And then if not, what is the point of it? Watch anime and take up dancing lessons then, or take a history class.

You just hit the nail on the head... martial arts has indeed "evolved" from fighting - and that's the whole point.

K.

i asked it as a question, as in general do you feel that it has evolved, not as a statement. why do you feel it has evolved? because of some zenlike philosphy that was fed to the american public?

[Kusotare]

i asked it as a question, as in general do you feel that it has evolved, not as a statement. why do you feel it has evolved? because of some zenlike philosphy that was fed to the american public?

I am not American, so I'm not too sure what is commonly fed to the American public Zen like or otherwise?

My Point about it evolving was in connection with the approach to teaching martial arts.

IMO, the joy of studying martial arts is in the variety of methods and pedagogies that have evolved over time throughout the world in order to transmit martial techniques.

Some of these are very basic and some quite complex in their makeup. Many are also inextricably linked with the culture and period from which they have evolved.

Look at the process of learning through Kata for example. This method of learning doesn't tend to fit in very well in today’s western paradigm - why would it? The notion of Shu, Ha, Ri (embracing the kata, diverging from the kata and discarding the kata) is an alien one - if you haven't been brought up in that type of culture or been taught to understand how it works.

If the one thing you are after is learning how to fight as quickly and as efficiently as possible - Kata is not the best way to do it today. That’s my own personal feelings, but it doesn’t stop me from practicing Kata and it doesn’t make me any less the martial artists for doing so.

As I mentioned in another thread a while back - the idea that you have to want to fight or indeed be able to fight well in order to qualify as a decent martial artist (or that a school has to teach good self defence skills to qualify as a good school) is both out dated, narrow minded and dangerous.

But to each their own of course.

K

[cheesefrysamurai]

First of all SOLID SUBJECT.

I would not consider China the source of Japanese karate. Without question Okinawan systems are heavily influenced by people traveling. Its evident in many aspects.

I know EXACTLY what you mean regarding American karate legitimacy. I am not sure there is one correct answer. I admit that my Senseis credentials from Japan influenced me joining. I can tell you why I think A LOT of this is sketchy. I know of schools that change affiliation for various reasons.

Are they suggesting that with paying dues and filing forms and making slight changes to kata, changes in affiliation gives them legitimacy??? Im not sure. Honestly Its slightly upsetting, that I could dedicate my time to training something only to hear from someone that my Karate isn't proper because our affiliation is with the wrong group.

That being said, what comforts me regarding this matter is, that I am sure I could pay my dues and change my affiliation if i chose to do so. VOILA i will be made legit with one swipe of a pen on a check

I was actually considering creating a thread asking questions about who feels which organizations are the right ones. There are so many splinters, so much ego. My Sensei follows the one his Sensei follows.

Like someones signature on this site says - "proof is on the floor" I think we can agree that its the practitioner NOT the club affiliation.

[bushido_man96]

Just a thought...

Someone mentioned earlier that Karate was not Japanese but rather Okinawan. Then another poster mentioned that the origins of Karate were Chinese. Both facts are important to consider – in the same way that it is important to remember that American (Gridiron) Football most probably originated out of the British game of Rugby Football.

Although the game of football that is most commonly practiced (outside of the US) is what you guys call soccer, Gridiron Football has a pretty big following outside of the US also.

There are many enthusiastic teams and players, however, my betting is that anyone that practices American Football in Europe would aspire to visit / watch games in the US and ultimately train / play there.

Do you think they would be wrong or narrow minded to think this? Do you think it would have anything to do with cultural xenophobia!?

In regards to your football analogy, I don't think so. Look at how baseball and basketball have grown the way they have overseas. Lots of Dominican players come to baseball now, and more and more Japanese and Korean players. But they reason they come to the US to play it isn't because it is somehow more "genuine" here; its because there is more money to be made doing it here.

I think the meat of the disagreements in this discussion stem from what some people would refer to as "genuine" or "authentic" due to the nationality of the teachers involved. I say if someone wants the truly Japanese or Korean experience in MA training, then they should probably attempt to train in said countries to attain it. Not that close to the real thing can't be found in the US, but it won't be exactly that way, in my opinion.

Then I believe what stems from this is that those who feel they have received the genuine training may tend to look down their noses at those who don't have that lineage, or feel the others aren't learning the "real" thing. I don't think everyone sees it this way, but I do think this is out there. I think this is what causes most of the disagreement in perceptions.

[Kusotare]

Just a thought...

Someone mentioned earlier that Karate was not Japanese but rather Okinawan. Then another poster mentioned that the origins of Karate were Chinese. Both facts are important to consider – in the same way that it is important to remember that American (Gridiron) Football most probably originated out of the British game of Rugby Football.

Although the game of football that is most commonly practiced (outside of the US) is what you guys call soccer, Gridiron Football has a pretty big following outside of the US also.

There are many enthusiastic teams and players, however, my betting is that anyone that practices American Football in Europe would aspire to visit / watch games in the US and ultimately train / play there.

Do you think they would be wrong or narrow minded to think this? Do you think it would have anything to do with cultural xenophobia!?

In regards to your football analogy, I don't think so. Look at how baseball and basketball have grown the way they have overseas. Lots of Dominican players come to baseball now, and more and more Japanese and Korean players. But they reason they come to the US to play it isn't because it is somehow more "genuine" here; its because there is more money to be made doing it here.

I think the meat of the disagreements in this discussion stem from what some people would refer to as "genuine" or "authentic" due to the nationality of the teachers involved. I say if someone wants the truly Japanese or Korean experience in MA training, then they should probably attempt to train in said countries to attain it. Not that close to the real thing can't be found in the US, but it won't be exactly that way, in my opinion.

Then I believe what stems from this is that those who feel they have received the genuine training may tend to look down their noses at those who don't have that lineage, or feel the others aren't learning the "real" thing. I don't think everyone sees it this way, but I do think this is out there. I think this is what causes most of the disagreement in perceptions.

Baseball is also British (not American)!

I have to dive in to a work meeting now but will respond later.

[kensei]

It is well documented that as well as receiveing 4th dan in Judo Oyama sensei was Menkyo Kaiden in Daito-ryu.

I think it would be fair to say then that these influenced the creation of Kyokushin.

K.

The only stories I can say are for sure about the Oyama, who was a great salesman and showman is that he had a shodan in Judo at one point (and may have been given higher rank) and a Ikkyu in Shotokan (and again may have been given higher rank but only trained 2 years in shotokan before moving to a few years in Goju). Kase sensei tells a great story about him and how he would boast about things and then be shot down by others who were in the know at the time.

For instance he told people he was a yondan in Shotokan at a local dinner when Kase was attending (he was a judo instructor as well as a Shotokan instructor) and Kase challenged him and he admitted after lots of ribbing that he left shotokan prior to gaining his full black belt, but was training to earn it now.

I am not putting anything that Oyama did down, he was a great showman and business man and his Karate is very strong! But I am suggesting that he was, and admitted to being, a bit of a salesman and used the showman ship he learned as a pro wrestler to really get students hooked.

Again, its a lesson we could all learn, how to sell yourself a bit better! in the end, he mixed a strong influence of Shotokan with what he learned of Goju from one of Miyagi's head students and created a very valid style of Karate.

[bushido_man96]

Baseball is also British (not American)!

I have to dive in to a work meeting now but will respond later.

That may be, but in America, it became known as "the national pastime." I don't think I said it was an exclusively American sport, but I did state that if someone wants to play at the highest level of professional baseball, and make the most money they can, the place to do it is in Major League Baseball, which is predominantly American teams, and the Toronto Blue Jays.

[Kusotare]

I don't think I said it was an exclusively American sport.

You didn't, but globally, when the world thinks "Baseball", they think America.

When the world thinks "Karate", they think Japan.

K.