McDojo?, Round 2

[pdbnb]

So I've been reading up on McDojo's again, and a couple of little things at my school rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm having doubts once more. Here is my 'three months later' list of 'credible school' vs 'McDojo':

CREDIBLE:

- Well behaved children with good technique

- No one in the junior class is higher than Green/Blue belt and the highest ‘kid’ belt is Red (and trains with the adults)

- Everyone gets told off for not doing the forms correctly, and senior grades are often made to practice basic white and yellow belt patterns along with the lower grades

- Only two black belts (a third visits on occasion), and one is the instructor.

- Nobody gets treated differently if they can’t attend a seminar, or say they will but end up no-showing (*blush*)

- Three months later I’m still a white belt. True, this is because the instructor mistimed a grading (he didn’t account for Easter), but it would still have been two months between my joining and the first exam.

- When I realised I couldn’t attend more than two classes and wanted to change my payment option (to pay LESS money), this was dealt with immediately – literally from one class to the next (from a Thursday to a Tuesday), I’d gotten the letter from the direct debit company.

- My instructor never gloats, and has worked on his Dan pattern in front of the class at least once.

- The White Belt Club (unofficial name) is given lots of attention and really has progressed loads.

- ‘Big classes’ will have maybe 20 students, usually 8-15.

- Instructor is star-struck by the chance to train with a senior master.

- I was not pushed to sign up immediately after the first class, although I did join up after about three sessions. I also got a free suit and insurance.’

- There’s free sparring, although with protection on. Anyone without gloves, etc, has to do no-contact sparring, unless there’s spare gear lying around.

- The teacher joins in the warm-up.

With that said…

- The school does sell merchandise, i.e. sweaters and sparring gear.

- Why do we need contracts? We practice at village halls and leisure centres…

- Our instructor is an excellent shill (of things like seminars) and makes sure to remind us each class up to the date of the event itself.

- I was under the impression that £35-40 for twice a week was reasonable, now I’m told it’s high?

- Instructor bad mouths WTF at every opportunity (we’re ITF)

- Instructor has bad mouthed a rival school on one occasion, although mildly

- “Don’t worry about it too much as white belts” is a recurring phrase.

- Children get simplified patterns (I think…don’t quote me on that)

- Trying to learn techniques from the next belt rank is discouraged, even when I feel I can do it the harder way.

- School has a ‘Little Tigers’ programme where Mummies and Daddies sit in on classes.

- Sparring is either point sparring or with protective gear on.

- Junior senior grades (i.e. children who are green belt or above) are allowed to join in the adult class, even if they’re only 10 or so.

- “Black Belt Club” was mentioned once, although to the best of my knowledge, there isn’t one in place. Maybe it’s just a turn of phrase?

- Workout music is sometimes played (at a low volume) in exercises where a timer/gong is involved.

- Class structure is quite loose, i.e. no two classes are the same and they sometimes seem improvised.

- White belts are often paired up with yellow-green or green belts who are supposed to teach us and evaluate our technique.

- The most senior Kup grade (coloured belt) is the worst behaved person in class (and 13.)

- My instructor was wearing a watch the other day during practice.

Thoughts? My needle is still on 'no', but as I said, certain little things have somewhat irked me.

PS: This is Taekwon-Do.

[ShoriKid]

So I've been reading up on McDojo's again, and a couple of little things at my school rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm having doubts once more. Here is my 'three months later' list of 'credible school' vs 'McDojo':

CREDIBLE:

- Well behaved children with good technique

- Everyone gets told off for not doing the forms correctly, and senior grades are often made to practice basic white and yellow belt patterns along with the lower grades

Just a sign of good instruction here.

- Only two black belts (a third visits on occasion), and one is the instructor.

- No one in the junior class is higher than Green/Blue belt and the highest ‘kid’ belt is Red (and trains with the adults)

- Nobody gets treated differently if they can’t attend a seminar, or say they will but end up no-showing (*blush*)

- Three months later I’m still a white belt. True, this is because the instructor mistimed a grading (he didn’t account for Easter), but it would still have been two months between my joining and the first exam.

This is class structure and comes down to preference of the instructor. More clipped because it pretty much falls under the handling of good business, being a pretty good martial artist etc.

Now the below, point at a time. All opinion of course.

With that said…

- The school does sell merchandise, i.e. sweaters and sparring gear.

- Why do we need contracts? We practice at village halls and leisure centres…

Two things here. Selling club gear/sparring gear allows the instructor to make a few extra bucks. It allows him to advertise the club (logo sweatshirt yes?) and make gear available, usually at a discount, and keep things standard for safety. No one in my town would have the first clue of where to buy a gi or good gloves and will spend $10-20 more to get them if they travel 70 miles to get them or order on line. Not a sign of "McDojo". Second point. The village hall/leisure center still costs rent and, as I take it this is in the UK, insurance fees have to be paid. Leaving aside the fact the instructor should be paid for his time. Contracts and direct debits eliminate a problem and head ache of the accounting for the instructor. Because I don't do this I'm about to have a very un-fun discussion with a student's father about six weeks dues owed.

- Our instructor is an excellent shill (of things like seminars) and makes sure to remind us each class up to the date of the event itself.

- I was under the impression that £35-40 for twice a week was reasonable, now I’m told it’s high?

Making sure everyone knows about up coming events, helps pull in more students and make sure no one can be upset because they miss an event and blame him for not knowing. You are paying $50-60, US equivalent, for monthly instruction. This is a fair price. You will pay much more for more access to a dojo. We paid $40 back in the mid-90s, and dojos average $60+ a month in a small city south of here. Not a sign of "McDojo".

- Instructor bad mouths WTF at every opportunity (we’re ITF)

- Instructor has bad mouthed a rival school on one occasion, although mildly

Pretty standard. We're all human. My first instructor had a beef with Isshin-Ryu and wasn't shy about it. A regional thing. He didn't talk about the other instructor in town, but that guy had some interesting things to say about him. Not a sign of "McDojo" that I've heard of.

- “Don’t worry about it too much as white belts” is a recurring phrase.

Translation: Shut up and train. Not a sign of "McDojo".

- Children get simplified patterns (I think…don’t quote me on that)

They're kids. Things for children are simplified all the time. Happened when karate was introduced into the school systems in Okinawa and Japan. Not a sign of "McDojo".

- Trying to learn techniques from the next belt rank is discouraged, even when I feel I can do it the harder way.

Learn what you are supposed to, when the instructor says you're ready. Not when you think you're ready. Not a sign of "McDojo".

- School has a ‘Little Tigers’ programme where Mummies and Daddies sit in on classes.

for insurance reasons and discipline as well likely, the parents are there. Having kid's classes helps pay for the training space for the handful of adults that are training. Not a sign of "McDojo" as an absolute, but a business decision.

- Sparring is either point sparring or with protective gear on.

If there is contact, protective gear is a must. I will bet money the gear in your school is less than pro fighters wear when they go harder. Likely about the same as they generally wear for "light contact". Point sparring will fit with most of the competitions available that people like to take part in. Not a sign of "McDojo".

- Junior senior grades (i.e. children who are green belt or above) are allowed to join in the adult class, even if they’re only 10 or so.

Not something I would do, but instructor's call here. Might be McDojo, depends on structure.

-“Black Belt Club” was mentioned once, although to the best of my knowledge, there isn’t one in place. Maybe it’s just a turn of phrase?

Maybe, but since it doesn't exist and you don't know what it would even be, is this a problem? Doesn't exist, can't be McDojo then.

- Workout music is sometimes played (at a low volume) in exercises where a timer/gong is involved.

Lots of MMA gyms do the same. Minus the low volume part. Not a sign of "McDojo" that I've heard of.

- Class structure is quite loose, i.e. no two classes are the same and they sometimes seem improvised.

Not everything has to be strictly regimented. That can just as readily lead to stagnation. And it could be the instructor picking up on the mood of the class or having started out with a plan to teach one thing and as class progresses, realizes he needs to back up and teach other things. No McDojo here.

- White belts are often paired up with yellow-green or green belts who are supposed to teach us and evaluate our technique.

Pairing more experienced people with less experienced people to help them learn is normal. In no way and indicator of McDojo.

- The most senior Kup grade (coloured belt) is the worst behaved person in class (and 13.)

Read your other post on this kid. Annoying as it is, it's a kid. Who needs a smack up side the head and told to settle down a bit. But, seems as much personality as anything else. What this means is that he's put in more work than the older folks in the room. What are his physical skills, laying aside what you think his behavior should be? Not a sign of McDojo at this point.

- My instructor was wearing a watch the other day during practice.

What? The guy responsible for the schedule of the lesson and seeing things are moving along was wearing a watch? Not a sign of McDojo.

Thoughts? My needle is still on 'no', but as I said, certain little things have somewhat irked me.

PS: This is Taekwon-Do.

Chill. Training. You haven't been at this more than a few months and you seem very tied up in what the school aught to be instead of worry about just improving your skill. When you are being sold something you are not getting, paying twice the average for it and being told (through belts perhaps) that your awesome at what your not getting, worry. Sounds like your at a fine club/dojang, enjoy it.

[bushido_man96]

I think you are really over-analyzing every aspect of the school. Some schools need to make money to stay open. And some people like to do what they love for a living, so they have to make money doing it, if they want to have a decent living.

I don't think its uncommon for some clubs to rival other clubs. Club rivalries can be motivational at time, as long as they are healthy. As for bad mouthing a style....this is unfortunate, and will happen from time to time. It doesn't mean you school is a McDojo.

[Tzu-Logic]

My only advice to OP would be to stop looking at the school itself and look inwards.

What are you learning at the school?

Do you feel like you are learning you art?

What is your personal goal in studying the art?

Can you achieve that goal at your current school?

It all comes down to you as an individual.

[bushido_man96]

My only advice to OP would be to stop looking at the school itself and look inwards.

What are you learning at the school?

Do you feel like you are learning you art?

What is your personal goal in studying the art?

Can you achieve that goal at your current school?

It all comes down to you as an individual.

I agree. Well put.

[DoctorQui]

OP, are you happy at this club and do you feel you are getting quality instruction?

[mal103]

I have to agree with Shorikid here, stop looking for imperfections and train and train hard!

If you find that when you reach MA maturity and start to venture out to other clubs, and even styles, only to find your club/Sensei was actually brilliant then stick with them. (maybe keep venturing as well...)

If you realise that they were more interested in money while teaching the same basics over and over then respectfully move on. Keep what you have learnt and build on it elsewhere.

We have bad mouthed other clubs before but only for being bad. We try our best to do what we do for the LOVE OF KARATE, sometimes you have to have a few of the mcdojo-isms to keep your club going for the more serious members that you know will make good Black Belts and go beyond.

[ps1]

Using your list, I rearranged it to things I see as credible v not credible. I also added a few categories and removed things you said you aren't sure of.

As you can see, your "credible" category heavily outweighs the "questionable" category.

With that said, I think you'll have more fun and do better overall if you stop worrying about if you are or are not a McDojo and just enjoy what you're doing. Either you like it or you don't. If you don't, go somewhere else. That's my two cents!

So I've been reading up on McDojo's again, and a couple of little things at my school rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm having doubts once more. Here is my 'three months later' list of 'credible school' vs 'McDojo':

CREDIBLE:

- Well behaved children with good technique

- No one in the junior class is higher than Green/Blue belt and the highest ‘kid’ belt is Red (and trains with the adults)

- Everyone gets told off for not doing the forms correctly, and senior grades are often made to practice basic white and yellow belt patterns along with the lower grades

- Only two black belts (a third visits on occasion), and one is the instructor.

- Nobody gets treated differently if they can’t attend a seminar, or say they will but end up no-showing (*blush*)

- Three months later I’m still a white belt. True, this is because the instructor mistimed a grading (he didn’t account for Easter), but it would still have been two months between my joining and the first exam.

- When I realised I couldn’t attend more than two classes and wanted to change my payment option (to pay LESS money), this was dealt with immediately – literally from one class to the next (from a Thursday to a Tuesday), I’d gotten the letter from the direct debit company.

- My instructor never gloats, and has worked on his Dan pattern in front of the class at least once.

- The White Belt Club (unofficial name) is given lots of attention and really has progressed loads.

- ‘Big classes’ will have maybe 20 students, usually 8-15.

- Instructor is star-struck by the chance to train with a senior master.

- I was not pushed to sign up immediately after the first class, although I did join up after about three sessions. I also got a free suit and insurance.’

- There’s free sparring, although with protection on. Anyone without gloves, etc, has to do no-contact sparring, unless there’s spare gear lying around.

- The teacher joins in the warm-up.

- The school does sell merchandise, i.e. sweaters and sparring gear.

- Our instructor is an excellent shill (of things like seminars) and makes sure to remind us each class up to the date of the event itself

- “Don’t worry about it too much as white belts” is a recurring phrase.

- Trying to learn techniques from the next belt rank is discouraged, even when I feel I can do it the harder way.

- School has a ‘Little Tigers’ program where Mummies and Daddies sit in on classes.

- Class structure is quite loose, i.e. no two classes are the same and they sometimes seem improvised.

Questionable:

- Why do we need contracts? We practice at village halls and leisure centers…

- I was under the impression that £35-40 for twice a week was reasonable, now I’m told it’s high?

- Sparring is either point sparring or with protective gear on.

- Junior senior grades (i.e. children who are green belt or above) are allowed to join in the adult class, even if they’re only 10 or so.

- Workout music is sometimes played (at a low volume) in exercises where a timer/gong is involved.

- The most senior Kup grade (colored belt) is the worst behaved person in class (and 13.)

- My instructor was wearing a watch the other day during practice.

Just Political nonsense that happens alot of places:

- Instructor bad mouths WTF at every opportunity (we’re ITF)

- Instructor has bad mouthed a rival school on one occasion, although mildly

Contradictory:

- White belts are often paired up with yellow-green or green belts who are supposed to teach us and evaluate our technique.

-Trying to learn techniques from the next belt rank is discouraged, even when I feel I can do it the harder way.

[DWx]

I really do think you're over analyzing everything pdbnb. From what you describe, it sounds like a typical UK ITF school. Tzu-Logic's post sums it up:

My only advice to OP would be to stop looking at the school itself and look inwards.

What are you learning at the school?

Do you feel like you are learning you art?

What is your personal goal in studying the art?

Can you achieve that goal at your current school?

It all comes down to you as an individual.

Contradictory:

- White belts are often paired up with yellow-green or green belts who are supposed to teach us and evaluate our technique.

-Trying to learn techniques from the next belt rank is discouraged, even when I feel I can do it the harder way.

FWIW I don't think this is contradictory. I think pdbnb is saying that the higher up belts can teach him his syllabus. We do it sometimes in my school. A green belt can help teach and evaluate a yellow belt learning their yellow belt kata and techniques.

[sensei8]

I think you are really over-analyzing every aspect of the school. Some schools need to make money to stay open. And some people like to do what they love for a living, so they have to make money doing it, if they want to have a decent living.

I don't think its uncommon for some clubs to rival other clubs. Club rivalries can be motivational at time, as long as they are healthy. As for bad mouthing a style....this is unfortunate, and will happen from time to time. It doesn't mean you school is a McDojo.

I highly concur with this!!

I'm some of the things on your list and I'm the farthest thing from being a McDojo. The dojo IS A BUSINESS no matter how one might think that it's not; whether it's for profit or for non-profit..."Who Moved My Cheese"!!