The death of "traditional martial arts".

[Kusotare]

Aikido as a system is a not about self defence.

If we are talking about the techniques found in Aikido, well, I'd agree to a limited extent (but even then, they were techniques developed long before aikido was formalised (in Daito-ryu etc.)).

Aikido itself is about Budo, or more specifically "Seishin Tanren" or spiritual forging.

K.

[bushido_man96]

Aikido is not a self defense art.

I'd disagree with that. It has a lot of self defense use and skills in it; it is functional in the wild even if it was never designed to excel in the octagon - it's not LESS suited for use in the wild than MMA is in any case.

I agree with JusticeZero here.

I also tend to disagree with ps1 in that I think MMA, as in the sport-style that is used in various competitions, culminating in the octagon of the UFC, is really becoming its own Martial Arts style. In its early days, it truly was "Mixed" styles. Now, with how its evolved, MMA has an outline to follow, more or less. I think there is a lot of disagreement on my stance here, and that's ok. Change is always slow to take. But, I think it has grown to the point that it has earned its own title.

[JusticeZero]

"Budo" is one aspect to training. You don't lose all of the other aspects just because someone in your lineage emphasizes one aspect. A fancy car is meant to demonstrate your wealth and status, but that doesn't mean it won't take you to the store for milk.

[Kusotare]

"Budo" is one aspect to training. You don't lose all of the other aspects just because someone in your lineage emphasizes one aspect. A fancy car is meant to demonstrate your wealth and status, but that doesn't mean it won't take you to the store for milk.

If we are still talking about Aikido here, defensive effectiveness is, at best, a happy by-product, but Budo (or more correctly ”shin budo”) is its reason d’être.

K.

[Kusotare]

To expand on my previous point about self defence being a “by-product”...

Of course it doesn’t need to be – it could be your primary reason for training or indeed high up there for the reasons behind it, but here’s the thing…

With Shin budo like Aikido, you have to get better at the techniques (combatively speaking) in order to progress, but paradoxically, if your focus is set firmly within the bounds of self defence, you risk drifting further away from the systems core ideals – it’s counter intuitive in a way!

To my way of thinking, by prioritising you're learning, in terms of how effective your SD within Aikido (see also other traditional gendai arts) you risk throwing the baby out with the bath water – and frankly could mis the bigger picture.

But to each their own.

K.

[ps1]

Aikido is not a self defense art.

I'd disagree with that. It has a lot of self defense use and skills in it; it is functional in the wild even if it was never designed to excel in the octagon - it's not LESS suited for use in the wild than MMA is in any case.

I agree with JusticeZero here.

I also tend to disagree with ps1 in that I think MMA, as in the sport-style that is used in various competitions, culminating in the octagon of the UFC, is really becoming its own Martial Arts style. In its early days, it truly was "Mixed" styles. Now, with how its evolved, MMA has an outline to follow, more or less. I think there is a lot of disagreement on my stance here, and that's ok. Change is always slow to take. But, I think it has grown to the point that it has earned its own title.

I get what you're saying. But when I call something "a martial art," I mean that it has a specific set of techniques that are largely universal among all that train it. More over, each style has a specific way of doing their techniques. This is what differentiates them from one another.

TKD: Side kick, reverse punch, horse stance, front kick ect...

Shotokan: Reverse Punch, Elbow strike,round house kick, front stance...ect...

BJJ: Armbar, knee on belly, mount, double leg takedown ect...

But MMA is simply a set of rules to work within. So there are not universal techniques used. There are some techniques that lend better to the sport than others, for sure. But I've seen TKD schools put up effective local MMA fighters who use somewhat traditional TKD styles of fighting combined with some sprawls. Others use boxing and wrestling to do ground and pound. Others still just do BJJ and work to put the fight on the ground for the submission. Machida uses Shotokan to great effect in the octogon. Silva fights completely different, using Muay THai and some BJJ. Maia primarily uses BJJ. Still others simply use a blend of several different effective moves.

My point is that, MMA is not "a martial art." It is a sport that requires the knowledge of martial arts.

[JusticeZero]

The same is true of MMA training, though. And hardly anyone claims Octagon fighters to be unable to defend themselves.

[JusticeZero]

The rules are nominally 'Anything goes', but in practice both rules and the 'standard' MMA mix have evolved together for awhile. MMA competitors optimize technique, gear, etc to mesh with the rules.

[Kusotare]

I have noticed something that I hope you guys don't get offended by...

It seems to me that, in the USA, there is much greater emphasis (in terms of what the zenith of martial arts is) on self defence!?

I could be wrong, but I wondered to myself this morning whether this was connected to your right to bear arms legislation within your constitution.

Not literally of course, but I wonder if a school that DIDN'T promote that "ideal"- would it be seen to be weak - from a marketing perspective.

Just a thought.

K.

[MasterPain]

I have noticed something that I hope you guys don't get offended by...

It seems to me that, in the USA, there is much greater emphasis (in terms of what the zenith of martial arts is) on self defence!?

I could be wrong, but I wondered to myself this morning whether this was connected to your right to bear arms legislation within your constitution.

Not literally of course, but I wonder if a school that DIDN'T promote that "ideal"- would it be seen to be weak - from a marketing perspective.

Just a thought.

K.

If you consider the literal definition of "martial arts", a lot of us consider taking a fighting art without learning how to fight to be silly.