The death of "traditional martial arts".

[lowereastside]

It's all depends on how one looks at things - what is not Traditional today may be traditional 50 years from now. MMA today will look very Traditional 50+ years from now. Look at the Karate Gi - many will say - Including the Traditional Okinawan"s that they train in the Traditional GI - However, they - karate copied it from the Judo Gi. Was Karate practiced in Okinawa in the mid to late 1800's in the Gi that is used today? - I don't thing so. Lets look at the katas that are practiced in karate today - many will say Oh! we do Traditional Katas - Traditional in what respect - what was done 100 or so years ago? I don't thing so. Anyway it's just my take on this subject.

[Kusotare]

There is another very good reason to train in "traditional" ma of course.

The feeling that you are actively part of transmitting a tradition or process that has been passed down from Sensei to student - so that other generations can learn and add to it.

“Ryu-ha” in its literal sense...

K.

[vantheman]

While there is something to be said for the fading spiritual aspects of Martial Arts, many traditional arts are evolving, not dying. While incorporating other arts may compromise the purity of the original art, it also serves to increase the effectiveness and compatibility of the art in both sport and street situations. While part of the MMA movement may be a fad, it is also a part of the evolving culture of the world.

[Kusotare]

There is of course a fine line between what we study as martial artists and pure violence.

The best predatory fighters and aggressors in this world are violent offenders who are missing something in their heads - we all know that.

Thankfully, most of us have that "switch" in our head that says NO, but equally men (and women), have always sought the surety of knowing that if push comes to shove... they could do their very best to keep themselves alive.

But I'm not sure that is the totality of what martial arts means.

In my earlier years – all I was interested in was fighting… Full stop!

But, even after not being subject to anything other than the odd drunken mishap, I’ve managed to survive thus far without having been attacked.

So why bother then?

K.

[Harkon72]

My Martial Arts are a journey in my self development. My true opponent is myself, each of us is a latent Tiger, ready to react and hunt the prey of society. I look to the Dragon within who only fears his own power, who initiates action, who looks for a way to walk slowly to his destiny. A warrior does not run to fight any battle; he walks to the beat of a calm soul, confident that providence holds the key to his ultimate journey. I am living in the modern world, full of material that has no place in the account of my Karma; my Tiger Hunts, my Dragon is profound in his wisdom.

[mal103]

I guess my main issue here is the rise of clubs with no dedicated style. They have no real direction and this annoys me. I have even seen people promoting themselves as a master/grandmaster, these people are Sho-dans, Ni-dans at best.

Other names are available for them.....

One of our students trained with a "master" before, he even wanted the parents to call him master! He demanded that students pay him for several months in advance and then disappeared with lots of money... I guess his Zen side was lacking?

As for the original question here are some thoughts...

It depends where you want to pin the "traditional" mark to MA and if it's within the last 100 odd years. Some trad MA clubs/org teach a limited syllabus badly, add more half Kyu grades to drag it out longer and wonder why nobody is interested in it, some clubs/orgs make it sound modern/REAL!/exciting/better and are fashionable for a while.

It is hard trying to get people interested these days but hopefully most people see things like MMA as just fighting where as good MA is still seen as more.

We have received a couple of compliments lately, one dad turned up with his boy for a free first lesson and wanted to sign up there and then, they had been to most other Dojo's in the area but was not impressed (dad had done it before so knew what he wanted to see), another parent said that they had been to the local Blah Blah Zone and their son was bored stupid but not overwhelmed by their "masterfullness" of all the instructors and didn't feel like bowing in their shadows for several years.

Overall I think the Zen, DO, way side of MA is something that has to happen to you while you train and not something that can be taught in 50 minutes in a week (on average).

You can lead the students to the mountain but how they climb it is up to them...

[Harkon72]

You can lead the students to the mountain but how they climb it is up to them...

So true, the challenge of the Martial Arts is a very personal thing.

[Kusotare]

You can lead the students to the mountain but how they climb it is up to them...

So true, the challenge of the Martial Arts is a very personal thing.

And if we are going for cheesy soundbites here...

"There are many paths up the same mountain..?"

K.

[bushido_man96]

I really don't think "traditional" MA is going away. There are more MMA style gyms popping up, and I think that's a great thing.

I also think there is a misconception that these arts we call "traditional" don't change. Shotokan isn't all that old, and is a modified version of what Funakoshi learned from Okinawan masters.

Aikido comes from Aiki-Jujutsu, and the spiritual aspect is nothing more than Ueshiba's spiritual and philosophical outlook on life. What makes what he did "traditional" when it wouldn't be if I took what I've learned in TKD and applied my own spiritual and philosophical outlooks to it and passed them on to my own students? Is it because the pictures of my school aren't in black and white? I really don't think so.

The bottom line is, people grow and change. I've been exposed to the belief systems of various instructors, and while all have been wise and good teachers, I've come to realize that I just don't see eye-to-eye with them all the time. So, instead of agreeing with things I don't agree with, I choose to have my own opinions and approaches to teaching the MAs.

Everyone does this, I think, to some extent or another. No matter how much we respect and admire someone, I don't think anyone really ends up being exactly alike that person. I respect and admire the hell out of my parents, but I am not the exact same as them. Its really no different with the MA instructors of my past and present.

The last thing I'll mention in this post is the approach of these spiritual and philosophical aspects in regards to "traditional" MAs, and where they come from. Many of our MA experiences come from Eastern-based styles. As much as I enjoy my Eastern-based, Shotokan-derived TKD style, I was born and raised as a Westerner, and have Western beliefs and ideals instilled in me. I think a good example you can see in this is how many BJJ schools tend to be much more laid-back and informal in comparison to it's Eastern ancestors, Jujutsu/Judo. And there is nothing wrong with that. I don't want to try to be Korean, although I am learning a Korean MA. Honestly, the Koreans doing TKD over in Korea are going to do a good job of maintaining their Korean beliefs and ideals in TKD over there, so I don't really feel an obligation to conform my students to Korean ideals. And I don't say that as an insult at all. Its just the differences in cultures, and I think its a good thing.

Ok, I rambled there for a bit, and I'm sure there will be some different points of view from what I've stated, but hey, that's what makes it great.

[Chunmonchek]

Without getting into the morass of what is, and what is not, "traditional", I would say that there may be more "traditional" martial arts available, and more practitioners of "traditional" martial arts now, than ever before. It just feels like the numbers are declining in relation to the "non-traditional" schools, gyms, etc.

For better or worse, I believe there are more qualified senior practitioners of "traditional" martial arts throughout the world, and more information available to "traditional" martial artists, than ever before.

Just ask anyone who was searching in the 60's or 70's, when training in the arts was far from mainstream.

IMHO, it's not a question of declining numbers, but of being overshadowed by "mainstream" martial arts/sports.